Steve Waszak

Hi kmark, What you'll want to pick up is the Tokyo National Museum's publication of Uchigatana Goshirae: The Art of Japanese Sword Mounting. There are a number of excellent late-Muromachi and Momoyama period koshirae illustrated in this coffee-table-sized book. Highly recommended. Cheers, Steve

Hi Rich, To my eye, yours is older and quite differently executed with regard to finish than the other. I would suppose the other is a "copy" of yours, meaning that it is a rather later rendering of the same design. Judging from photos here only, of course, but yours appears to be richer, with a deeper patina, and more carefully modeled sculpting of the details. In-hand may tell a different story, but that's what the photos suggest to me, anyway... ) I don't see these coming from the same workshop, as the metal and metal work appear too different... Cheers, Steve

Greetings all, I've heard it mentioned here and there that certain Japanese publications (with English translations?) offer a sort of "ranking" of tsubako. I'm wondering if anyone here knows which publication(s) this might be. Thanks for any help... Cheers, Steve

The problem I have with the lotus theory is that, assuming we're reading it as a lotus leaf rising from the bottom to meet another descending from the top, the area in the middle is much wider than it has to be to accommodate the seppa-dai, and yet, all that metal would not be needed for the lotus design either, so why is it there? Lotus leaves could easily be rendered more gracefully by simply removing some of the middle from the center to the right and left of the seppa-dai, so why wasn't this done? The butterfly theory is made problematic for me because of the elements shooting off of the rim to meet the "wings" of the butterfly; what are these structures pursuant to achieving a butterfly motif? They do appear as some sort of "stem" in my eyes, and yet... Cheers, Steve

Hi Henry, Very nice guard. The metal looks excellent, and that hitsuana is intriguing... ;o) I've been thinking about your question here, though, and I can't say that I'm able even to narrow it down very usefully (maybe some morning coffee will help). I get the sense that the subject is not merely pure abstraction, but that some "thing" is being abstracted here. Just can't make out what that is yet... Do you have any thoughts on it yourself? ) Cheers, Steve

Hi Andrey, Here is a second-generation Hoan (Kaneshige) tsuba. As you can see, the work is quite fine. This dates, I believe, to the latter part of the early-Edo period. Christian is correct, I feel, in observing that your tsuba doesn't fit the vogue popular at the time of the third or fourth generation Hoan. I am not aware of these later-generation Hoan producing ko-katchushi style guards, but that doesn't mean they didn't; I'm just not aware of any... I have a vague recollection, however, of seeing at least one of these later-generation Hoan inscribed with a mei that had a look/feel very much like the one on your guard (rather large and "reedy" looking). I find it curious that there are no chisel marks around the nakago-ana... An interesting tsuba, Andrey. Thanks for posting... Cheers, Steve

Hi Keith, I suppose your words underscore why it is that there is something of a fued among the various camps over what is the proper aesthetic condition of a tsuba, and then what the proper cleaning method and degree would be to achieve than aesthetic. It almost seems to boil down to trying to lasso a definition for beauty. So we're damned if we do, damned if we don't when it comes to tsuba care, it would seem. Very frustrating and disconcerting. but that's how it seems to me at the moment. Regardless of what course one might take in the care of his tsuba, some will agree, some won't. It appears unavoidable... :? Curran, I am a little confused by what you say here. When you contrast pure preservation vs. the way these tsuba would have looked in actual use and maintenance during their active life, would you be able to detail this contrast for us? You mention pure long-term preservation here, too; I guess I don't quite follow your meaning when you say "pure preservation" (vs. something else). And elaboration would be much appreciated! Thanks. Cheers, Steve

Fascinating stuff, guys. I will say, having seen the tsuba in person less than a year ago in San Francisco, its appearance is much more like the image from the catalogue that Pete first reproduced here for us than it is like the 1952 "version." When I saw it, it really looked wonderful: the rust on the guard didn't detract from the design; in fact, it even conferred an extra beauty to it, there in the filtered light of the museum. Of course, I didn't see it in direct sunlight (which likely would have told a very different story), and my own views of it appearing beautiful in its condition at the time is entirely subjective. My concerns in this thread have been, as I've said, twofold: what is the "proper" aesthetic condition of a tsuba, on the one hand, and what is good for the tsuba (in terms of rust removal), on the other. Ford, I hadn't known that bit about silver sulphide being actually destructive of the silver. Very interesting. Certainly explains why so many Jingo tsuba have their silver dragons in such a state... Cheers, Steve

Fascinating. Thanks, Ford... I think your speculation on the iron differences between pre-Edo and Edo iron tsuba has intriguing possibilities. After all, if the climate in Japan didn't change from one period to the next, and if the sword-wearing habits in the culture didn't change (meaningfully in the context of exposing iron to the elements), what it seems we'd be left with is the compositional nature of the guards themselves (and yes, I do note a difference, at least in tendency, of the later guards to rust, not just more than the earlier tsuba, but more evenly across the plate, too). Great stuff. Thanks again, Ford... Cheers, Steve

Chris, Thank you for the clarification on Mr. Kremers' viewpoints. I would like to know more about the evolution of his thoughts regarding tsuba care. In particular, it would be interesting to know why he may have changed his mind about certain points in tsuba conservation/care. I wonder, too: does he still subscribe to the white-gloves-only-when-handling-iron-tsuba doctrine? Keith, I appreciate your comments here, as they do indeed sum up some of the frustration I've felt when attempting to "get to the bottom" of the question of proper tsuba conservation/preservation. But your words also made me realize I probably haven't been clear enough about the way I have presented my concerns. That is, I see two distinct questions pursuant to this issue: 1. What specific aesthetic/appearance "should" we be holding in the highest regard? 2. How should we proceed with materials, substances, methods in attempting to have our tsuba achieve that aesthetic/appearance? The first question is, I think, really the crux of the matter. The second question is more "mechanical," and should yield fewer disparate opinions. After all, chemistry is largely an objective field of knowledge; if certain chemicals/substances are known to react with a given material in some way, this is a reliable reaction. So if we know what effect we want to realize in treating iron, the question of what substance to use to achieve that effect should, it seems to me, yield a relatively narrow field of possibilities. The larger, thornier issue, in my view, is the question of how a tsuba "ought to" look in its "ideal" state. That is, when we are fully satisfied that a tsuba cannot be "improved" by treating or cleaning or fiddling, what, then, will that tsuba look like? Will it be left with deposits of rust, maybe even a bit of dirt and grime, to go along with a lustrous patina? Or, at the other extreme, will it be polished to the point where layers of metal have been stripped away, along with rust, dirt, grime, old wax, and patina? Or perhaps somewhere in between? If this latter, what point between the extremes is "proper"? I guess it just seems to me that as long as there is disagreement (even wide disagreement) about how a tsuba ought to look when at its best, there is not much point in even approaching the question of a "unified field of iron tsuba preservation and cleaning methods." Of course, the problem with this point of view is that it's no doubt naive to hope for any sort of consensus on what state of preservation would foster the ideal appearance/aesthetic expression of an iron tsuba. Hmmm... It seems we may be back where we started. Maybe it's just me... :? But I feel that at least the issues are clearer, that I understand better where the tensions are, and so perhaps can better work toward a position/opinion that is therefore better informed, even if there is no shortage of polarization among the various viewpoints. Thanks to all who have been so kind as to offer opinions and thoughts on this rather vexing question... I do appreciate it... Cheers, Steve

Hi Christian, Thank you for your post... You do make some good, thought-provoking points here. I appreciate your contributing these. I wasn't quite clear about the Kremers reference, however, since I believe he holds a viewpoint similar to that of Sasano regarding removing all red rust. He seems to think that it is very important to eliminate ALL red rust on a good iron tsuba... If you were referencing a different idea held by Kremers, could you please let us know? Thanks, Christian... Cheers, Steve

Hi Pete, Ah, yes. Hmmm... Well, between that unfortunate Kanshiro, and this Kaneie, we seem to be looking at two poles. I find it necessary to stress that it's not just that these guards appear in the condition they're in, it's that they appear in the condition they're in. That is, they are displayed (whether in a high-quality book, or in an exhibition) in their respective condition, with the implication being, of course, that they're fit for such display. Yet, again, they occupy two poles of condition (well, the Kaneie could be in much worse shape, of course, but you know what I mean... If you're the poor, hapless sap (like me) who wants to "do right by his tsuba," and looks for guidance from the "experts" on how best to do so, and you see these two examples, what are you supposed to think/do? To my eye (for whatever that's worth), neither of these extremes is desirable. Yet there they are, on display in the condition they're in. And not just any tsuba here, a Kaneie and a Kanshiro. Cheers, Steve

Hi Keith, We think alike, my friend. I hear what Tim's saying (and Ford has said it, too) about the state of museum conservatorship and why this is. Still, there are many who would consider this tsuba to be THE most important tsuba extant in the world (Kaneie is regarded by many to be the greatest tsubako, and this tsuba is regarded as his best work by some). I'm not sure I can think of examples of any other art form where a given piece even might be considered the zenith of its species, and then neglected to this degree (if neglected at all). Lack of funding, minor art form, whatever. As far as I'm concerned, letting this tsuba languish in this condition is the equivalent of letting the Masamune Houchou tanto accumulate rusty spots and streaks on the blade, with maybe a pit and a scratch for good measure, and then displaying it for exhibition. I wonder what Sasano would have to say if he were to see this Kaneie now. Cheers, Steve

Hi Tim, I see. So, what do you make of the condition of this Kaneie, then? Would you say it needs a bit of TLC? Is what we're seeing simple rust only, or are there remnants of wax on the plate? Thanks, Tim... Cheers, Steve

Hi Tim, Thanks for these excerpts. Fascinating, especially that last one, which speaks to Bob's response to seeing this Kaneie tsuba cleaned... I can't help but wonder how this guard may differ today in its condition from 1988, when he describes his great disappointment at its having been cleaned. Or maybe the way it appears now IS its "cleaned" state? Good grief, so it's quite clear that, even with a given specific tsuba, there isn't full consensus among experienced scholars on what the ideal/appropriate condition should be, right? I find this fascinating and, somehow, disconcerting at the same time... :? Thanks again for the excerpts, Tim... Cheers, Steve

Yikes. That is a scary thought, given that tsuba made by THIS Kaneie are the equivalent in the tsuba world of a Masamune in the sword world. I suppose I would still pose the question, in any case, whether this tsuba in its current condition would or could be seen as acceptable or ideal. Cheers, Steve

Hi Keith, Yes, that's just it. Clearly, such a guard as this Kaneie would rank at the top of the list of those tsuba to be especially lovingly preserved via the very best care/methods possible. And yet, it presents as we see it here. I am left with one of three conclusions (assuming what we see here is, in fact, active red rust): 1. rust isn't as bad as we think it is; 2. this sort of rusty accumulation provides an aesthetic plus to the tsuba's overall beauty, in the eyes of those who hold these pieces in their keep; 3. even the best and most experienced conservators are clueless about how to deal with rust, and so they leave the pieces in this condition. Of these, the third option seems the least likely (obviously), and so I'm left with one of the first two (if not both) to consider as the reason for the condition of this Kaneie as it appears here. Either way, the final conclusion I would have to draw is that the Sasano and Kremers exhortation to remove all traces of red rust with due haste is at the very least not shared by some pretty well-established and experienced conservators of tsuba such as this. Too bad we can't summon these conservators to "explain themselves" here; their views, whatever they may be, would be illuminating... Cheers, Steve

Hi Pete, Many thanks, once again, for the visual aid... What's interesting is that this image doesn't really suggest much in the way of rust on the guard, right? Okay, now if one were to download this image to one's computer, and amplify the color saturation feature, one would then see quite a bit of redness appear. In the various crevices, this manifests as a lighter-colored and crustier-looking rust, while over the raised portions of the plate, the redness is darker and smoother. Could some of this be rust, while the other is wax remnant? Cheers, Steve

Keith What you describe here at the end of your post is just the sort of process I went through in feeling ultimately stymied by the lack of clear direction to take when it comes to "proper" maintenance and preservation of these pieces. If so many Muromachi and Momoyama guards were lacquered to protect them, but those iron tsuba seen as top-shelf were not, it is implied thereby that some other method(s) must have been employed to protect them, since, as they are still ferrous, they would be subject to rapid rusting without such protection. At least, this is what I would think. I can imagine that black lacquer would have obscured too many of the fine features/qualities these tsuba would have had, thus another form of protection would have been preferred (Wax? Oil?). Of course, Sasano does suggest that the black-rust patina, coupled with the occasional rub-down, would be sufficient, so maybe this was enough? Our discussion here leads me to wonder how many great tsuba have been lost to simple rusting, especially any that may have been lost when supposedly appropriate care had been administered. I am reminded at this point of the Kaneie Nara deer tsuba I mentioned earlier. As I said, I saw this guard in person last summer in San Francisco (for anyone who has the Hosokawa exhibit catalogue, this tusba is well-illustrated there). It is a truly awe-inspiring tsuba, but it definitely does present with a fine coat of light red rust. At nearly 450 years old, though, if this piece had been well and truly neglected, the thing would be powder by now. So clearly, it has been tended to (and of course, any tsuba made by THE Kaneie is not going to go wanting for care and attention). Yet, rust dusts the plate. It has been explained to me that certain Japanese conservators are, um, conservative in their conserving efforts, and this is why such pieces appear with such rusty attire. But it seems to me that if such a philosophy had governed the maintenance approach used by all who had been entrusted with the tsuba's care over its lifetime, it would not have survived to the present day. Am I wrong in this assumption? If not, what approach was used in earlier times? Then, too, I can't help but wonder whether, in the Japanese aesthetic sensibility, some light rust on a guard with an otherwise excellent patina hasn't been seen by some as desirable on some level (i.e. part of the patina imparted by the guard's aging). If this were so, we'd be back at that distinction between the "preferred" aesthetics of a tsuba and the best way to preserve that tsuba, which may not always dovetail smoothly... I think it's time for an 18-yearl-old scotch and a couple of aspirin... Cheers, Steve

Pete, Yes, thank you for this illustration... ) See, for me, this raises question about how reliable Sasano's opinions on tsuba care and maintenance are. I realize the example you provide for us here is a rather extreme one, but nevertheless, it does beg the question: if not this degree of "cleaning," what degree is ideal or "proper." Of course, with this example, we see (I think) Sasano going well beyond his own advice in his earlier book on sukashi tsuba: this piece is evidence of much more than removing red rust and then simply wiping the guard down from time to time to allow the black rust to take hold and develop. Was Sasano just over-zealous, then? Thanks again Pete for the photos... ) Cheers, Steve

Hi Keith, You make some very good points here about the way we approach these guards now versus how they were seen/used hundreds of years ago. Yet, I would think that the signed iron pieces produced by the men who are now regarded as "the greats" in the iron tsuba world would have been seen, even at the time they were made, as worth of special attention and care (the fact that they were signed works at a time when tsuba weren't signed suggests this, I think). Since we're talking about tsuba made of iron, and which are some 400 years old and then some, these guards must have received some pretty effective care in their time (and subsequently) simply to have made it into our world today. Given Sasano's words on oil (and wax, I believe), I can't help but wonder if the Japanese way back when similarly would have eschewed oil on these important iron tsuba, in favor of something else. I can't recall ever seeing any remnants of black lacquer on Nobuiye, Kaneie, Yamakichibei, Hoan, or Myoju pieces, however, so the black lacquer that may first come to mind as the protectant used in earlier times doesn't appear to have been the case in such tsuba. Sasano speaks emphatically on the wisdom of removing all red rust in allowing the protective "black rust" to take hold and develop. This black rust, he says, will protect the guard from the development of red rust. He indicates fairly strongly that, with such a protective "shield" in place, oils and waxes are to be avoided, as they may work to foster red rust development. A good black-rust patina, then, combined with the occasional gentle rubbing/"polishing" with a soft cotton cloth, would be all that is needed to care for tsuba, he suggests, once all of the red rust has been removed. So I suppose the question I would have, then, is whether this really would be enough to keep red rust at bay. If it is enough, why all the history of waxes and oils in the "protection" of tsuba? There is definitely a strong divergence of viewpoints here... Ian, thanks for that fascinating bit about the pieces in the Shinto Shrine at Chuzenji. Do you have any sense of what might account for the state of preservation of these pieces? Thanks, guys, for all your thoughtful consideration on this topic... ;o) Cheers, Steve

Keith, Yes, the question of how tsuba were cared for and preserved in earlier times is intriguing, isn't it? ) Did the owners of these pieces then ivory them? Apply camelia oil liberally? Sparingly? Ever? Did the never-clean-the-walls-of-sukashi-and-ana rule apply then? I know pieces were lacquered sometimes, but was any other coating applied? I imagine there may not be a lot of existing literature on this subject extant, even in Japanese, but who knows? Maybe there is an old pamphlet kicking around filled with such secrets... ;o) Ford, I see you referenced Sasano and his recommendations for tending to iron tsuba, but I understand that he was known for "over-cleaning" his iron tsuba, in some cases nearly taking the patina off the piece. I don't know if this is accurate, but I have heard this on more than one occasion, and the tone used in recounting the stories was rather reproving... Given that he also recommends eliminating all red rust on a tsuba, I just wonder if some might not view his approach as a bit on the over-zealous side. Cheers, Steve

Hi Keith, Yes, good questions. Very good. Another term that may need defining is "iron" or "steel." What I mean here is that, discussing rust and patina and how these affect our iron/steel guards without considering that the various composition of the metal we're referring to might react differently to oxidation, may be only marginally beneficial. Things start to get a bit wobbly conceptually when we really settle into defining our terms, especially when we throw in the destabilizing factor of varying opinions on how these metal works "should" look, and even more so when we consider how they "should" look NOW, versus at some point in the past. Of course, the "proper" appearance of a tsuba, on the one hand, and the best state in which to conserve/preserve it, on the other, may not be the same thing, at least not to all of us. Whose judgement, then, decides? All of the above have direct bearing on how we approach the question of how to tend to and care for our temporarily-held possessions. This is what prompted my question here on the forum in the first place: it is frustrating to have the best intentions and desire to care for tsuba in the most conscientious way possible, to have the willingness to devote time and resources toward that end, and to then be stymied due to a garden of divergent opinions on the matter. The trouble for me is that I find several of these opinions to be persuasive, including some that directly contradict one another! I am left wanting simply to leave well enough alone, and do nothing. Except that, according to some, such "negligence" is perhaps the worst thing I could be (not) doing, either for the aesthetics of the guard, or for its proper preservation, or both. I thus can't win for leaving things be, nor for taking up my ivory and choji oil (and/or wax) and scrubbing away every whisper of red rust... It would seem that the conservative Japanese perspective is to allow some red rust to remain. Based on what I've seen from the condition of a number of ultra-great, iconic tsuba (including the Kaneie Nara deer tsuba at the Hosokawa exhibit at the Asian Art Museum in San Francisco last summer, which is virtually frosted in light red rust), the more conservative Japanese element in whose care these tsuba are entrusted see little/no harm in letting a bit of red rust stay on the surface of these pieces. They may even argue that the aesthetics of the tsuba are enhanced thereby. Perhaps they're right, I don't know for sure... But given some of the opinions I've heard on the harrowing dangers presented by red rust on iron tsuba, that conservative Japanese viewpoint is a little hard to embrace... Sorry to ramble here... Just thinking out loud a bit... Cheers, Steve

Ford, Thanks for that example of before and after. Now, did you remove that rust by simple ivorying? And could you elaborate on what you mean by "neutralising"? Finally, a word or two on how one goes about "touching in" the patina would be very interesting to hear (if that's not a trade secret, that is... ;o). Keith, many of your questions here echo my own. Your observation that tsubako of old knew, of course, that their guards would rust to some degree is a good one to keep in mind. My question, as a follow-up to yours here, would be how the Japanese dealt with/cared for these iron guards over the course of centuries. Did they clean them? How? How often? To what degree? How was it known to what degree they "ought" to be cleaned? I mean, some of the tsuba we have are a good 400-500 years old (or more). Without care, they'd have rusted to dust long before now. So clearly, they received some attention. But what kind? How often? ) Cheers, Steve

Grey, Curran, Martin... Many thanks for your thoughts on this topic. It's very useful for me to hear about your experiences and viewpoints. I encourage others to share theirs as well, as getting a fuller dialogue on this subject is important, I think. Grey, I especially appreciate your words on what constitutes worrisome (i.e. ACTIVE) red rust... Very helpful. And Curran, your recounting of what you saw at the Boston Museum was a bit harrowing, but what you say here is exactly why this topic is warranted. After all, the wisdom out there in many circles is to NEVER touch the rust in the sukashi and ana walls... I would love to hear what those who subscribe to this last dictum think about what Curran describes here. Just to be clear: I am NOT looking to start any sort of feud of viewpoints; I just really want to understand in depth what the opinions are, and why they're held by those who espouse them. Thanks again, guys... Cheers, Steve