Dave R

I buy fittings, tosogu. via ebay, but I would only ever buy a blade that I held in my hand and looked at there and then, and from a dealer I can find again. There are so many things that be overlooked in a photo, hidden or faked.

A lot depends on what you buy in the way of a sword.... The Chinese made ones often use "Piano Varnish" as a finish rather than lacquer.

Thank you for posting this, fascinating and useful.

Not strictly swords, but for those of us with a broader interest in Edo Japan.fascinating. Thank you for sharing.

I think this blade was ground all round the blade to a certain depth and then snapped to complete the break. The semi polished ground area contrasting with the granular broken area gives the impression of a core steel within a case steel, ie Kobuse. I could be wrong, I frequently am, but that is the impression I have... I have done similar to shorten (an already broken) Western Military blade.

Very nice piece.

I am going to stick my "two pennyworth" in here. No1, saying online what you would not say to some ones face is the definition of a "Troll", and I am sure no one here wants to be one of them. No 2, I see references to 300 years traditions of collecting.....but. The modern level of polish is generally held to be a product of the Meiji era when swords ceased to be used, and some say it only came in with the electric light. The original owners of these swords were by our standards dreadfully casual with them, to the point where they would drill a new Mekugi-ana just to fit a new Tsuka, or shorten them at the tang to fit with fashion.... The point being that collecting the way we do it now is a new phenomena, and so it is a bit rich to claim ancient tradition as a sanction for rudeness. Quite frankly I have been quite put off by the attitude of some posters here and as a sword collector of 40 years standing I have never come across it at these levels anywhere else. This is an excellent Forum and a resource I value very much, but I am reluctant to post my new pieces because of the barracking anything gets that does not match some peoples "exalted" standards. ( btw If you think I am being overly opinionated to the point of lacking manners...Hmmm a bit off putting isn't it.)

BUMP!..... I am still collecting pics for this topic......and other informations relevant!

Hmmm, what makes you think I am in the US. Btw, the polisher I use also polishes for the personal collection of someone I respect and who is an acknowledged authority on Japanese arms and armour... and who unlike you has seen the work first hand. Now I am not wanting to flame people here, I am on this site to learn and share, but it is a bit disturbing and offputting the confrontational way some of you post!

My photo's do not do justice to the polish, and as I said, I did not want it taking too far. The polisher is in this country and Japanese trained. Regarding the koshirae, I am putting it into the old saya, which has been cleaned and putting the rest of it together from original parts as far as possible. I am a sword collector, rather than a blade collector so am not too fussed about shirasaya, which is also why I did not want too high a polish. Lets face it, the ultimate result of repeatedly, highly polishing a blade is.... a wafer thin piece of scrap metal.

This Wakizashi is now back from being polished.... as per my request it has not been taken too far, I think you can always take more off but you cannot put it back on again.

These next two photo's are of swords that at first glance look to be of the type I am discussing here, one of them is even described on the sale site as a "Satsuma", but in both cases although they have typical Ito and one of them even has iron mounts, they do not fit the profile. The one has nice custom mounts, and the other has decorated iron mounts rather than plain, both have decorative menuki. The final factor to my mind is that in both cases the Ito passes through the Kashira rather than over it.

This is the point I am trying to clarify... to what extent is the mounting of these swords random, or uniform within certain parameters. That is why I am wanting pictures, drawings or even descriptions of this type of Nihonto. Evidence rather than opinions!

To my delight someone else who had read the first post on this thread sent me these photo's of a couple of items from his own collection... interestingly one of these though obviously a cheaply remounted sword has copper kashira and fuchi and a "proper" menuki. A variation from the usual iron mounts and washers.

Dear Mr Sinclaire would you please post some photo's of the koshirae, I started this thread in order to gather such. The idea originaly being to amass evidence rather than discuss theories.

Thanks for this... a nice piece and much neater than most of the type. Looks to be a Toppai variant, but the red laquer really looks to be a giveaway as to which Han it is from. Anyone else got thought on this one? Any idea of a date for this one?

Writing as he who started this thread I can say that it has gone off topic, and although I am entertained in the points coming up here, and am following them with interest..... can we have some discussion and photo's relevant to my original question.... variations seen in the koshirae of those swords variously known as Okashi-to and Rebellion swords. Thankyou.

I have actualy tried to avoid the question of what these should be called, being more interested in what they look like, and what variations there are in their make up.... however since that is what this thread has been hijacked into here is my two pennyworth. We know for a fact that there were swords made in large quantities and stored in arsenals to be loaned out to Ashigaru as needed, bundle swords, Okashi-to etc, but there are no existing swords clearly identified as from these arsenals ???..... There are in existence large numbers of cheaply assembled very uniform swords that are genuinely old Japanese swords...... There is as far as I know no evidence for the production of "erzats" swords for the Satsuma Rebellion other than the attribution of that name in Western collecting circles to a type of cheaply (though competently) made/assembled sword, which is also the most uniformly made sword 'till the appearance of Gunto.

I think as Ian says that uniformity is an issue here...... I don't think you see so many swords all of matching style in Japan until the appearance of Gunto. Thats one of the reasons why I am appealing for input on variations within the type.

I have seen some others with standard iron fittings but very nice menuki, but consider them dubious, as it looks like the menuki are later additions to dress them up for sale. Which is why I posted the original question...... what do people see as defining a **** sword, and what variations on the theme have people seen around?

Ian, you beat me to it..... here are some of the pictures I have collected so far, some from this site and some from others, sorry not to credit people but I am not too sure about privacy issues. If you see your sword, and want to be credited, sing out. As you can see they are very much a uniform bunch. Then you get varients like this, which uses a worn kashira rather than a purpose made shallow iron piece. And this one, all to standard except a nice menuki.

This is rather the point of the photo's.... no "rebellion swords" in sight. The Rebellion was a Samurai rebellion, they would all have their own swords in proper koshirae, so who would be carrying "rebellion swords"? This is why I tend to see the plain cheap koshirae of the question as being "Okashi To" However, whatever we choose to call them, what I am trying to get is more information on how they went together and what variations are seen in their construction!

A few pictures, as in two photo's and a contemporary news print, the tinted print most relevant. The b&w photo is supposedly of the Satsuma negotiators at the end of the short lived Anglo-Satsuma War. The colour tinted print is of Satsuma Officers at a briefing meeting during the Satsuma Rebellion. The Newspaper print is from a Western report of the Rebellion purporting to be a drawing from life of Saigo and his officers. However I do feel inspired to say that what I was hoping for was not so much a discussion as to the origin of these swords, but more what were the characteristics and variations of this well defined type . The photo's are I believe from the "Beato Collection" and that of "Okinawa Soba", used under the fair use provision of copyright.

There is a distinctive style of Koshirae often seen on the lower end of the Nihonto market, characterised by iron fuchi and kashira, cotton or hemp Ito, usualy tan or brown in colour and bound in a variation of Katatamaki, and menuki that are usualy iron "washers", disks, or even lacking all together. Tsuba are usualy/always iron, often very shabby. Blades are usualy worn or "tired". The core of the Tsuka is often a reused piece of a Saya, sometimes a shabby Same paneled one. These are often called "Satsuma Rebellion" swords and the legend is that they were hurriedly put together for use in that short lived war. Another hypothesis is that they are in fact Okashi-to... variously spelt in Romanji, ie swords held in an armoury and loaned out as needed to Ashigaru.

Another member Ian B has put forward a good argument that "Rebellion" swords are in fact Okashi-to, and rather than reiterat his ideas second hand I would point you to his own words - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7396&p=59258&hilit=satsuma+rebellion#p59258 . I am looking for information on this very distinctive and well known style of Koshirae, whether it be Satsuma Rebellion or Okashi-to in origin and look forward to any information you have to share on this -to me - interesting subject.