Dave R

The only "machine made" blades are for bayonets, and possibly NCO swords. It's a shorthand term, and much overused, for every type of non traditional blade! Don't worry, the term keeps cropping up but ignores the realities of blade production in the early 20th century.

Apparently menuki are one of the areas where customising was allowed, I have pics of a few Gunto with old or otherwise non standard menuki. Probably easier and lower scale than having a mon fixed to the kabutogane.

This was why I wanted to put together a thread on these , and have a discussion on what could be regarded as being a "Satsuma" rather than just a shabby sword. I have my own ideas now, and think that they (Satsuma or Okashi-to) are in fact an identifiable type.

So called "Satsuma (rebellion)" swords are a bit of a vexed question in the Nihonto world. Being a low end item not a lot of research has been done on them. My own opinion is that they were armoury "munition" swords, made up from pieces that would not polish, but had one more fight left in them. Some of the mounts are downright odd with pieces of scabbard being used to make hilts etc.You might enjoy a read of this thread, though some of the pictures have gone due to broken links. http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12723-okashi-to-rebellion-swords/?hl=%2Bsatsuma+%2Brebellion&do=findComment&comment=131643

Which one of us are you talking to?

I'm not sorry, I have learned a lot chasing up what I can find about the possibilities of this blades origin. I would hang on and see if you can get it to someone who specialises in Showato, and certainly not me. (I live in England).

No agenda, just got absorbed in the chase.

I can understand the reservations, and I don't like the Nakago either, but you do see some odd stuff with Showato. If it had been Chinese, do you think the Togoshi would have been "kind." For me, the thing is I have seen another like it, decent provenance but not my sword and so no pics. I think I will just leave it here for now, and just carry on digging for my own satisfaction.

Are you following the links provided?

I am interested in what this thing actually is, rather than dismissing it. Why, would you rather I shut up!

Click the link I provided, in the end it was decided that the balance of probability was that it was a Nihonto. There are also other links to similar blades with good provenance. This whole thread amazes me! If a conventional looking sword had gone to a Togoshi, who window polished it and then said, "not a Nihonto" his judgement would have been accepted with little or no argument. Here the thread starter was an unconventional looking sword, window polished by a trained Japanese Togoshi who judged it to be "Mantetsu" and "Nihonto", and people are jumping through hoops to disagree. Myself, I would tend to go with the judgement of the trained man who had it in hand, and worked on it even... Then I would (as I am doing) go looking for examples of other swords that would explain why he came to that conclusion.

Interesting discussion here about another blade with a weird and possibly enhanced "hada". Worth reading, and following the links. http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/21681-not-sure-if-the-hada-is-etched-on/?hl=tanren&do=findComment&comment=220380

This is the problem with long threads, I lost track a bit.

Yes, you beat me to it...... I had it on file but not where from. By the time I had hunted the source down, oops!

Digging through my photo files I found this one. I think the blade looks familiar, and the mounts are for an Iaito, modified for military service. I suspect Dave's sword is the same sort of thing. Discussed here. http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/15735-civlian-katana-in-military-use/

Interesting photo! Do you have any more information on these?

Is there anything further on this story? At risk of making a now redundant comment on a subject long time cleared up, to me the mounts look like those described by Mr. Ohmura as Gunzoku mounts, the para-military "helpers" to the army.

What I find interesting is how many people "want" this to be a Chinese repro', so they can go back into their comfort zone, and not think about what it might really be!....

I have no dog in this fight, but what I will say is that I have seen a similar Showa blade, with just as strong a grain, that definitely was not acid treated. Btw, I use the word "Grain" rather than hada quite deliberatly..... It was a Showato, with provenance and we were all a bit puzzled by it.

I doubt very much that the Japanese togoshi used any acid on the window polish, though I look forward to a confirmation from Dave that no acid treatment was used later. What I took away from this is that it has a "window polish", as in, not the full blade. I have in fact seen something similar at one of the Northern To-Ken Society UK meetings, and if I remember rightly it had the same sort of issue with the hamon.

Whatever it is, it is one damn fine sword!

Railway steel! Mantetsu was primarily a Railway Company, Minamimanshū Tetsudō Kabushikigaisha; Nánmǎnzhōu Tiědào Zhūshìhuìshè, which then expanded into all sorts of other activities. (Mantetsu also had a presence in Japan, not just in Manchuria and Korea.) Back in the day (Fuller and Gregory) it was assumed that Mantetsu swords were in fact made out of old rail track, whereas we now know a lot more about them, especially the Koa-Isshin blades. I think our Togoshi was possibly just meaning that he thought it was rail track steel, Mantetsu would be the maker that would then spring to mind. This would also account for it being a very hard steel, with a grain, but also not worth signing at the time. A Seki special. Btw, it should be one hell of a cutter, being a high carbon manganese steel

Seeing as they are an illegal weapon in Japan, I have no doubt about that at all.

I think he would have left no one in any doubt if he had thought it was modern Chinese made.

The links seem to be broken atm, I'll give them a go later. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/sunobe.html