Dave R

"Menuki often are, it's the edges, the way the sword is held, the fact they are raised and (pure conjecture) perhaps the type of paint used." I think you have a point with the type of paint used. It's like lacquer and textile dyes, some colours perform differently to others.

The Japanese army had problems with getting enough swords, and relaxed their original specifications somewhat. They also had sword buying drives where they bought them from the general public in Japan, and accepted blades shorter than regulation. The pdf below explains it in more detail. gunto call up 12-23-2017.pdf

I find that claim to be a little dubious. As a stamp it is fairly common and has other documented reasons for being applied. There were swords specifically made for low temperature use, and they were marked as such, not just with a sakura.

The mounts are odd, the blade tip is at best reshaped, and I have seen nakago' welded onto dodgy blades in the past. There may very well be genuine elements to this package but why buy when there are so many issues. Walk away, and don't turn round.

I would suggest, remounted at least once in its life, but had at one time two mekugi, something that is seen even on old mounts from time to time. It's one of those odd features seen on the swords of people with a real interest in swordsmanship, like full same and a scabbard hook and predates WW2.

Gunzoku were given army ranks but were counted as one step up from that rank when it came to swords. This according to Nick because of their better educational qualifications, so this looks legit, and confirmation of that very thing.. The detail is in here, and it is worth reading the whole thing.https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/what-were-regulations-army-civilian-employees-carry-swords-701783/

Very nice Itomaki, any chance of seeing the other side please?

According to Mr Komiya' research in official documents these are an early Showa era civilian pattern, Gunzoku were supposed to carry a standard Shin-Gunto with an all brown sword knot. This does not exclude them from being carried by Gunzoku though. There was a real sword shortage by 1942 and we quite often see civilian mounts adapted for military service. Swords were being bought up by the military in regular "drives" in order to fill the shortfall in official production. If you have a good search on this area of the forum you will see it covered in a lot more detail. gunto call up 12-23-2017.pdf

I love this "group" though I see no sign of the Dirk here. Decent condition Kai Gunto, stamped and marked as non traditional and Navy. All too often people chase the special and ignore the production pieces. Thank you for putting this one up.

Have a look and see if you can find a stamp anywhere on the tang.

Boars head makes more sense than Bull. I'll go with that.

I think if you were having a sword made in the field, you would have it made to any length you like or could handle. Personally I prefer them at the shorter length. If I remember right Naruse Kanji was a martial artist, so his sword would be made or obtained to fit his preference and school .... A nice subject for someone to research in more detail?

One of the reasons I think it's a custom made "Spring To", old blades that size are rare, and usually very old as in Sengoku Jidai, or temple dedications.

Probably one of my posts where I asked the same question. I understand that this feature appeared after the Mongol invasion in reaction to combat damage. I have seen the term "Bulls Head" used to describe it. It's quite pronounced in my Kanayoshi Shin Gunto.

Personal experience, I have actually tried to forge a blade from an old lorry spring, and it is the very devil to work. The borderline between working heat and burning is very fine and it kept turning into a "sparkler". In the end I gave up and worked on other stuff like a couple of 15thC Western style sword guards in mild steel,which was much less frustrating. Old vehicle springs are very much the preferred option with a lot of ethic smiths as well. Scrapped files tend to produce a brittle blade, but are more of the size for a blade, and need less forging. A lot of reenactment blades are made in the same spec' metal, but bought in as bar stock closer to the finished size and weight and I have a couple of these. In the UK it is called EN45, the EN standing for Emergency Number, a wartime initiative to standardise names between factories.

Because these are two members of one of the repair teams we are discussing as having made their own swords, or had them made for them.

I quite fancy one myself, or just the blade even....

"I could say more, but I am trying not to wind people up or be insulting or personal about this" And that is what I meant, perhaps it's an English thing where we avoid being confrontational. Regarding what these swords looked like, there is a very high likelihood that two of them are shown here...

I really fail to see what the problem is here. As collectors we see all sorts of variations on the type 98 shin-gunto, and indeed the rinji seshiki, some of them well provenanced though very odd indeed . We have documentation and references for swords being made in China for the IJA, not "field made" but made in factories and workshops appropriated by the IJA and manned by sanctioned skilled professionals sent out from Japan by the Army..... Fuller and Gregory mention a factory in Peking/Beijing banging the buggers out made from Chinese rail stock. We have documentation and references for Seki factories using old rail track in Japan as well. Ohmura has a whole section about the blades made from lorry springs Why are people getting their knickers in a twist over this.... There was a war on, raw materials were in short supply, and the priority was rifles aeroplanes and artillery not swords ! I could say more, but I am trying not to wind people up or be insulting or personal about this. It's not a radical theory, it's a matter of record!

There is absolutely no doubt but that they were professionals in the field, that's why they were sent out there! ... So where are these swords,.... at the bottom of the bay, or with their families, or totally indistinguishable from any other Showato gunto! Given that there is documentation for these swords being made and the expertise of the craftsmen, I am a little puzzled as to what point you are trying to make.

I would suggest that the repair team swords would be much better made than the others mentioned, we are talking about a bunch of professionals in the trade here.

"Just for fun" have you tried a magnet on the tosugu? I got a gunto koshira recently, original and from Japan, and the fuchi, kabutogane and menuk of standard patterni are plated iron! Late war, substitution of material, and I wonder how common this would be.

Have a look at the heading of this part of the forum.... "Military Swords of Japan For the discussion and identification of non-traditionally made Japanese military swords 1876-1945"

But they would cut like hell. Source.. http://ohmura-study.net/209.html and in a battle, that was what mattered.