Miura

the submission didnt really have a place in this thread. But ill address this since you brought it up. Depends on what you mean by made. Ueda San knew him rather well. the other two, im not sure who yamasa is but Jo didnt know him except very liminally. I think its kind that they did such a tribute. But somewhat odd that they didn't care to include me. Lets stick to historical costs.

I guess this is somewhat related. A while back, somebody forwarded me a post that was done by somebody on facebook stating in the old days "iron was worth as much as gold". Then a member improperly addressed it by saying: "That doesnt make any sense, otherwise they would have made coins out of iron." The first guy quickly deleted his post. Both were wrong: Blind leading the blind. I believe it was the fake Fake armor society in England facebook page.

Wow, a bunch of very good questions Chris. In my opinion, as far as work orders go, Ill do whatever the client wishes me to do, but I will advise them on what the best options are. There are varying degrees of “conservative” restoration, where we try to address the troubled areas, stop deterioration, and keep original lacquer etc. for ambiance. In these cases sometimes we will try to add patina if desired to the restored areas to make it look unmolested and perfect. This is actually part of the Traditional Japanese restoration techniques. And it has been done for hundreds of years. When I do full restorations, I say I have done a traditional, professional restoration. Unfortunately, and I say this without hesitation, there are certain people who have really hurt restorers because of how they badmouth items and created an air of untouchability for “restored” items so as to down-value or degrade items that are restored. For example, they might say, it doesn’t have the original lacing so its no good, or the urushi is not original, or the shikoro is changed etc. The problem here is that just about every armor that has real age has had some sort of re-working and restoration done to it. Most lacing outside of blue variants degrade rather quickly and have to be replaced over 100-200 years or so. Indigo lasts longer for several reasons such as being resistant to UV, and being bug/microbe repellant. In any event because of the attitude taken toward full restorations, many people will try to hide their restorations by distressing their work. A good restorer has a huge base of knowledge and experience to draw off of so as to restore properly. By properly, I mean not only be able to do work that will last a long time, but to be able to do something that is proper and within the taste and style of the period and place of original manufacture. When does it become fraud? I don’t say it is fraud in general when a restoration is performed on a piece. I would say it becomes fraud when something is made to look like or become something that it is not, and then promoted as being what it is not. That would be fakery. I restored a helmet a few years ago just to show my skills. I did a Red kawari, with a verigated green shikoro. Thehelmet was momoyama period, but I wanted it done in a style that nobody had ever done before. When I finished it, it was on a couple different TV shows and a famous singer/model in Japan even wore it. I sold it years ago at Bonhams for exactly what it was. A momoyama period kawari with a modern restoration. It did fine. Miura sensei sold an old helmet he restored as well for a very good price. I find nothing wrong with saying its restored, as long as it is restored in the way that you say it has been restored. The problem is that when you restore it with epoxy and body filler, and say its done properly…. That I would call fraud. Last year at the Christies auction there was a kawari kabuto that was modern made. Nishioka Studios I believe, and it was papered by the katchu kai. If you look at the papers it says “Kawari Kabuto Zunari Base Edo Jidai” in big letters. Then in very small letters it says “harikake gendai” meaning that everything that makes it a kawari kabuto is modern. The writing was so small that at first glance the Japanese Christies staff didn’t notice it until I called them up and warned them. On the other hands I sold a kawari through bonhams a while back for a friend. It was same place of manufacture. But it had papers to the Edo period. When we put it in Bonhams I insisted that we say it was modern. Its all liability. Anyway it sold. Somebody just wanted an art object and I was happy that there were people out there to buy the art for what it is. I wouln’t take any zunari and do it red, unless it was of the type that would have been red in the first place. Doing that to me would stick out like a sore thumb and its one way in which fakes can set off alarm bells to the well trained eye. Red should also be done with the proper pigment for the style of helmet. Different periods, different mines for mercuric sulfide, ocher etc. produce different local colors for the local armor. Improper color for certain types of armor sets off alarm bells as well. And is an eye sore. Odoshi is the same deal. You gotta know what goes right with which armor. Improper weave (such as that done by shoelace maker machines) or mimi – ito (boarder lacing) done with improper color combination or material sets off alarm bells. Every time I restore and use mimi – ito, I ask the weaver to do it exactly like the original, but in the original unfaded/unpatinated color. I have quite the collection at this point. But the style gets preserved at least. I know That restored pieces can scare the living hell out of people who don’t know what they are doing, and it has been a moving force in some of the community to speak poorly of restorers (its out of fear) however secretly they ask us to do work just for them… just not ourselves because that would be bad. Hypocrites in my opinion but I digress. What you mentioned about buying old zunari and re-doing them on mass scale to be what they aren’t and presenting them as “old”… now that is on a fraudulent level, and is a severe ethical dilemma. One serious problem with the photos you posted the restoration process. What was done to “seal” the flaking urushi on the mabizashi is pretty bad. That is a typical quick fix that may last long enough for the item to sell, but will eventually fail, and leave the buyer very unhappy. Its like painting over a rust bubble. At that point the urushi is so compromised that its best just to excavate it, remove any rust and build it back up. That’s my biggest problem. If you are going to restore it that way, don’t bother, but it is hard to tell what is underneath layers of urushi. The eyebrows: I generally would not do that kind of a restoration myself. If it was done intentionally to fool somebody its not good. If the chip was left there to make it original, its pretty devious. My organization, will not issue high level papers for these sorts of restorations, however if the restoration is well done and we can confirm that it is well done, we might give our second levelwhich is tokubetsu hozon. We give tokubetsu hozon to items that have properly and well restored. Generally, it is best to have eyes and ears on pieces directly to make sure as to the quality of the restoration and how it is restored. Our organization will do remote shinsa if we can confirm the item (having seen it first hand previously) or having an associate that we trust handle the item and send photos, and/or do a video chat and place the camera in specific places so we can confirm what it is. In the past we had an associate in England who was supposed to be doing this for us. Unfortunately, when it came to his own items he misrepresented some of them to us, and in some cases doctored the photos or told us that the item was old (and restored) when it had a modern helmet with an edo period Dou. In the beginning we trusted him, but we started to realize that improper materials and methods such as epoxies and improper hardeners were being used as well as the mixed in modern parts. To our credit we never issued anything above the Tokubestu hozon level even when the items were antique. We really strive to support proper artisans and their techniques along with proper restoration methods so in general we support the methods outlined in the beginning of my text. At this time we still do offer remote shinsa, but In some instances where its difficult to confirm from photos or video we will issue the most basic papers. Yes, if we have processual photos of how something was restored it would really help us to make a judgment call on what level we give it, but in general, we can get a pretty good idea seeing the finished product. Generally…. But it helps if you can trust the person who did it… We also do issue “Gendai” (modern) papers for modern made items. We do this because, again, we want to support proper artisanship. Therefore, the level that grades the modern made item would be issued by 1. How well it conforms to Japanese traditional design 2. Techniques. 3. Quality of the work. 4. Proper materials. For example: A marutake helmet: 1. Paint not urushi, 2. Press not hand 3. Iron alloy not iron 4. Soft metal alloy not gilt copper 5. Fittings pressed and cast not carved 6. Lacing not silk. 7. Machine formed not hammered. At a distance, it looks like Japanese armor, but from an artisan’s perspective its not art, and from a katchu shi’s perspective, its not Japanese armor. I hope I have touched on all the points that were asked about..... If anything needs clarification please dont hesitate and ill do my best to explain.

So are these old items being re-made, or original items being sold as old or?

Oh god. Im not even going to ask.

Otsuka san did not make all those pieces.

On the other hand my organization did have a submission from one of the members that was a composite armor re-lacquered, and im almost 100 percent posative the hachi of the kabuto was modern. But he swore up and down that it was real. That was the one paper that I always regretted passing. Glad he quit. We do give papers to restored composite armors if they are properly restored with urushi and silk lacing and done tastefully. The level of paper would depend on how true the restoration is. And only artisans with a lot of training or other historians etc. with a lot of experience are qualified to judge such things at that level in my opinion.

Looks Like a sogo nari to me. Is that a restoration or a complete redo? My own personal opinion is that I keep my work between myself and my client, so whatever they ask for its either new, restored old, or unrestored old. Doesnt mean that the client wont sell it as original, or maybe it makes it to an auction and the dealers dont know the difference. Last few auctions I have been to had some very very well done Akoda Nari Kabuto, and they sold for authentic prices. Problem is that the person who made it was the dealer at the auction... but auctions are buyer beware so its hard to point fingers. The guy who made this sogonari, did he sell it as real?

Which mr Otsuka san are you talking about? That helmet isnt bad but a little out of proportion from anything i have seen and there are many variations. I guess its its own variation. If it was a hobby, hes a lay craftsman. Plain and simple. Not saying the work is bad or good.

That helmet really has materialized to be something beautiful and compelling.

This is all great information. One tidbit that i read previously was that a samurai was expected to spend the same amount on his armor as he did his house. When i visited the ashigaru houses in Kaga it made me think about why their armors are so nice. Their houses weren’t far off from officer grade samurai in other domains.

Yes... the urushi cure time excuse. 😂 A muro can make a big difference.

Oh sorry! Im sure it didnt take 900 days to actually do the work, but it took around 3 years for the owner to get his helmet back!

Some people promote themselves as being a professional restorers who practiced traditional methodology in the restoration of Armor. In one case, the more I found out, the more that epoxy and other non-natural-traditional-Japanese-cheap materials came into the picture. When I said, "thats not urushi, and it looks terrible", the answer was "They'll never know" or "they dont care". One thing that we have to keep in mind is that Japan was never successfully invaded over 2000 years or more. Why is this significant? Because intangible culture by and large was able to evolve and survive with a continual line. Other parts of the world suffered war, uprisings, trauma, and political overhaul which result in the archeological and historical record being the only source for tangible and implied intangible culture. The point being that over 2000 years of using certain techniques such as urushi, there is probably a lot of uninterrupted trial and error that took place to come up with good techniques, and materials that were successful, beautiful and long lasting... so why undo all that it took to get to that level now? Ignorance and greed. Lets try to adjudicate that. in this thread. Id like to introduce some work that was done in a "shortcut" fashion by what the Japanese might call a "kowashiyasan" or "trasher". First the Lacing: What most people dont know is that traditional armor lacing by the nature of the weave has a front, and a back. This is important for many reasons. 1. it allows for consistency in orientation during lacing, 2. for facility of passing through the hole of the armor, 3. a nice straight shoulder to form where it protrudes fro the hole. Front and back of a typical Japanese woven lace. Notice the curvature on the lacing in the photo on the left. Without the front and back of lacing, when protruding from a hole, the "shoulders" of the lacing will appear to sag. This is an eyesore to people who want a real, traditional restoration. This is what happens with lacing that is produced on a shoelace string machine rather than a traditional Japanese lacing weave. The "shoulders" sag, the lacing hangs down and appears flacid and out of proportion. Proper lacing will produce much nicer results and prevent twisting such as you see here: This particular helmet restoration is a very odd case. It was "restored" once by a Japanese studio with body filler, fake urushi, and proper lacing yet poorly done. The owner wanted it properly restored, so it was restored again by a different "expert" who removed the body filler, fake urushi, etc, and "restored" it again. This time with the shoelaces.... and yet again with fake urushi. Why is this done? well, urushi once opened does have a life span. Actually it lasts forever as long as newer urushi with active enzymes is introduced. Or it never hardens. Urushi is also very expensive. So if you dont use it frequently, it can go to waste. Finally, it will cause you to itch like crazy unless you build up an immunity. In my case it took me two years before I was immune. Even with immunity, if you get it on your skin and leave it on there for a given amount of time, it will cause sever inflammation. This is what people fear the most. However, urushi is extremely strong and long lasting. Which is why I only work in real urushi. One reason that you do not want to use a fake urushi or cashew urushi with real urushi is that they dont mix and its only a few years before they separate. Among artisans, urushi is said to be "living" because it expands and contracts with the changing seasons. Non-urushi products do not, and therefore it is only a matter of time before they separate. So dont restore urushi with non-urushi products. In the case of this helmet, the owner was told urushi would be used, but it is not the case. Generally a Shitaji (under coating) is used to prepare the surface for urushi to flow on top of. In this case, thick oil based fake urushi was applied directly to the metal. As it does not flex, when the shikoro was applied, you can see where it chipped on the top. the red bleeding over the top of the shikoro is because it was not properly masked. In this case, the red lacquer should only be viewed from one side of the helmet. Not from the top. or the back of the helmet. Appropriate Kanamono (soft metal fittings) Here we see a very nice kanamono. I should know - I made the original and it was silver, not brass. I know not how my work came to the hands of the Trasher who did this "restoration", however, I know my work. Unfortunately, the restorer has made a fake brass copy of it and used that to attach the shikoro. Kanamono proper to a kabuto are very important in making it look right. Any helmet that has fake kanamono, fake urushi, and shoe-lacing stands out like a sore thumb to a professional. I assume that some people are ok with this though. I accept this. My point in posting such threads is so people will at least have a little bit of an idea about what they are really hoping to get if they hire a restorer. Hopefully other people can add to this thread. Or at least glean something informative from this short post.

Thank you sir. Your understanding is much appreciated. I hope we can debate further.

Hi Colin, i was actually in the middle of a reply to you when the defamation started rolling in. Sorry, if you felt left out. Go back and read though. Accusations went one direction. Unfortunately i had to address them. I shan’t apologize for standing up for my honor and the truth. I do agree with you however that poor restoration should be addressed in a new thread im sure that there will be many examples that surface. So duck! And yes, i do agree that amateurs can be more capable than some claiming to be professionals. Lets make this happen!

And I am one of those people Luc. Thanks for the support. Brian Im thankful for the message board. I have always hated drama myself. Unfortunately this day in age I cant stay holed up in my cave any more. Somebody poked a sleeping tiger.

Dave Thatcher Wrote: Since I retired, I have promoted katchu on social media, with over 40,000 people on the platforms. 1. You aren't retired. But its good to know how many people you influence and its stated here. It will help to estimate how many people have been influenced by your defamatory statements towards me. I am working on a series of books on the subject that I publish for free to educate others using my limited knowledge of the subject. 2. I would hope that you would have more than limited knowledge before you start educating people and publishing books. Start with some informative essays first, maybe some peer review. There is room for everyone, and I request that you cease your campaign against me. 3. Nobody is campaigning against you. However when you abuse social media, the internet, financial backers, email etc. to defame and threaten people, I for one wont stand for it. As a leader of a legitimate organization I will stand up for what is right and just, and protect those who you attack.

Dave thatcher wrote: Your forum should not be where anyone can air their dirty washing. You have stated that many times. Maybe your tolerance has been swayed by a personal dislike, that's completely understandable. These squabbles are non-productive and serve no purpose. It's far better that the community is served with edible content that will not make them vomit. 1. There was no dirty washing. Why are you Squabbling? There was some debate until you came along and threw dirt in the washer by defaming people under a fake account. Dave thatcher wrote: Over the past few weeks, you have allowed Andy to make some very questionable claims. 2. Its a forum. You can debate the claims. But debate MY claims not your own claims about what I said. Dave thatcher wrote: He's actually attacking everyone; his remarks are aimed at Markus Sesko, Katsu Toyoda, the Japanese Armour Society, the NTBTHK, its everyone. 3. I dont even know some of the people you said I am attacking. I am not attacking anybody. At least I dont see it that way. I actually really like most of the people I have met with interest in Japanese art, archeolgoy, history. Dave thatcher wrote: Read his posts, and the arrogance of what he is preaching will spill over. Not everyone can make it to Japan to learn the arts, many try to do it on their own, an I welcome this. 4. People who know me. (and Dave Thatcher does not know me) would not say I am arrogant. I have not been on social media for 15 years. I have kept to myself. But I can see how you feel threatened when I came back on the scene. I was from poor stock. I found a way to get to Japan on my own. You just have to work hard. Although I originally didnt have the intention of being an armor maker. You should stop making it out to be so difficult Dave. Its just about hard work and trust (introductions) Dave thatcher wrote: I was a restorer for years until I retired in 2021. 5. Maybe some of the users can post photos of your work so people can judge for themselves. We are well aware that you are not retired from what you do. Dave thatcher wrote: I used the term katchushi because it was made popular by Soanes in the West. 6. I think you of all people should stop saying things about Mr. Soanes. Dave thatcher wrote: I have never been a katchushi; I was a Gusoku-shi. 7. Earlier you claimed that I was not a katchu Shi because I never finished an apprenticeship with my teacher, yet you said that Andrew Mancabelli of Miura Anjin Kobo bestowed the title of "Gusoku Shi" to you on your facebook page..... how does that work? I never gave you any title. Did you make it up for yourself? Dave thatcher wrote: I fixed and repaired and assembled armour. 8. No comment. Regarding assembling armor. Yes I agree. Dave thatcher wrote: I studied urushi under a Japanese teacher and learned the rest over years of hard work. 9. What program and how long? Do you still use urushi now? Dave thatcher wrote: Andy signed a blood oath to become the deshi (or at least that s what he tells others). 10. Really? Who did I tell this to? Its already been established that you dont always tell the truth or change your story depending on how it benefits your purpose. Dave thatcher wrote: Miura sensei was an amazing man with an amazing portfolio of work that has earned most people's respect. 11. Really? What do you know of his work? Whats your favourite? The one you saw on one of my TV programs? Stop using other people to boost your ego. Dave thatcher wrote: I actually don't like what Andy is saying because I find it damaging to his teacher's nameI fixed and repaired and assembled armour.. 12. The sentence doesnt make sense. However, it is you who is doing the defaming here. If you had a teacher it would reflect poorly on them. Dave thatcher wrote: He continues to swerve and fail to observe the law on the ownership of the KNKBSK; where is he informing the members that he owns something that he doesn't. 13. See below: I still dont understand the logic and reasoning for the numbers above, but it would be really nice if I saw any of that money. The most important part to note is Dave's acknowledgement to having zero financial investment, and release of any ownership interest to me. I even tried to get him to reconsider. He declined. In retrospect it was a godsend. Dave thatcher wrote: That is very misleading and illegal, and when he sells his first counterfeit certificate, the police will pay him a visit. 14. Counterfeit? We do a service and produce certificates of authenticity here in Japan. It would be very funny if you defrauded the police. What you are saying here is misleading people. And its sad. Dave thatcher wrote: The KNKBSK is not a shinsa service; rather, it is a body to provide appraisals on a white-label basis for dealers that do not want David Thatcher written on their certificate, as that would be seen as a conflict of interest. 15. Translation: 1 man shinsa hiding behind a name he ripped off from a legitimate organization he quit. (see resignation above) Dave thatcher wrote: No certs are issued to members of the public; the body is very small, with a few EU-based dealers. It is no competition for the JAS. 16. How many person or people is the Dave thatcher white-label society shinsa? You like to name names. Why not share the members names with the rest of us? I never wanted to "compete" with the JAS, but you used the society to attack and make people think we backed your silly arguments. Why would you create an organization with the exact same name as the one you quit? Unless you wanted to ride off the reputations of the good people who make the organization legitimate. Just change your name and logo Dave. Be original. Dave thatcher wrote: Andy provided a service which has been terminated, he has ignored a C&D to destroy the now-discontinued paperwork. 17. The record is clear. We are not terminated. Active and been going since 2020. The Dave thatcher white-label society active since 2022. However, you have been asked more than once to cease and desist the imitation of our organization. Why would I destroy the intellectual property that Miura Anjin owns? I dont think my accountant would like that. Dave thatcher wrote: On your forum, he openly states that the TM are his own, they are not and the TM covers Japan. 18. First of all I did not state that the trademark is my own. It belongs to the organization though I paid for the creation of the intellectual property - receipts to prove it. If you think you are in the right, please sue me and see what happens. There is a mountain of very clear evidence against your claims including witness testimony. Dave thatcher wrote: I would not like to see your forum used to promote or drive business to Andy where he would be taking peoples money illegally and issuing certification that is nothing more than worthless fakes. 19. See resignation letter and release of ownership above. I dont ask the forum to promote our organization. However, if you want some free information and participate for free on our journeys to esoteric shrines in far off places, join. You might have fun. If you need a well done certificate of authenticity, we will be happy to make one. Our facebook will be up soon. Actually, the best promotion we have been getting is from Dave Thatcher driving people our way. Call them fakes or whatever, just the production cost of one Juyo level paper costs us around 20,000 yen. The paper itself is not worthless as its hand made washi pressed with gold, countersealed written completely by a professional calligrapher. Each is a work of art in and of itself. Dave thatcher wrote: I'm not here to defend my name; I don't care what anyone says to be honest, as I just want to be independent of forums and the hassle and politics they create. 20. Then why are you here except to defame me? You have not been mentioned at all in any forums by me unless your proxies or fake IDs mention you. You have lied and defamed me on facebook, and now here. Again, the biggest mistake of my life was trusting Dave Thatcher. Dave thatcher wrote: I'm here to ask you to be careful about what you allow. Some of the younger members are very open to believing what they read and these posts of late are somewhat of a deluded fantasy. 21. I agree. People should be careful. I am talking with some of the younger members now who you lied to and told them that they could never be an artisan because they were none left to teach them or its too hard. The Kokusai Nihon Katchu Bugu Shinko Kyokai of Japan will try to put aspiring young artists in to contact with an artisan. Of course we would have to screen them first to make sure they are prepared and qualified. Dave thatcher wrote: Andy will no doubt respond, nothing will hold any water, he only writes babble that can never be evidenced. 22. I think its funny that you imply that I will be producing some sort of evidence. You must know that there is some very very clear evidence of what happened between you and me, and you and the organization as well as other parties. More keeps coming in every day. I suggest that you stop while you can. Dave thatcher wrote: I have stated my case Brian, and I won't post again unless a member (other than Andy) would like to know more about the KNKBSK. 23. Good. I think thats a great idea. Hopefully if people want to know about the Kokusai Nihon Katchu Bugu Shinko KyoKai which is in Japan, people will contact me. Thank you.

Mr. Thatcher! Is that you? In response to your defamation. (which will be dealt with elsewhere) Dave Thatcher Wrote: I have been following your essays over the past few weeks. I am not sure, but you seem to be coming over as someone who is the self-proclaimed messiah of Kachu. 1. When did I proclaim my self to be a messiah? I am what I am: A traditionally trained armor maker with a lot of experience under my belt. What are you? Dave Thatcher Wrote: You have studied under a katchushi, and he was very talented, but you are making questionable claims with no proof of transmission of title; it is very well known in Japan that you never completed your apprenticeship and broke contact with your teacher in his final years. 2. Mr. Thatcher. Resorting to lying and defamation yet again? There are multiple records of me being named as atotsugi. Most recently in the famous national Television show "Wafu So Honke" where not only does Miura sensei name me as his atotsugi, he said that he sees me as a colleague. He also gave me a hand written "graduation" note years ago. All good hard evidence yet again that would stand up in a court of law. Please. Why you would say such preposterous things I can only imagine. But Im happy you did because your true character is beginning to emerge. There is a Japanese saying "Boketsu wo hotteiru" .... digging your own grave. Dave Thatcher wrote: You were excluded from his last exhibition, none of his tools, works or references were passed to you, and you were not invited to his funeral by his familiy. That should raise alarm bells; you can say anything now that he has died. 3. Mr. Thatcher, you really know nothing of my relationship with my teacher and nothing about me. And what you are writing is despicable. I spoke with his son who I think very highly of after his passing. There was no funeral as it was the height of covid. They didnt even get to see the body before cremation. That didn't stop you from doing the uncouth deal of posting the notification of his death, to try to raise yourself up. And when I told you that he passed away it was not to be announced to the world. By Japanese custom you are supposed to wait 45 days to do such things. Im sure the family would not be happy if they knew what you did. I wanted my eulogy to be put on the society website once the time had passed..... Unfortunately we made the great error of letting you be the administrator of the website, and you blocked any free publications and things that I wanted to do with the organization. Anyway, several of your lies are exposed in your previous facebook listing: Dave Thatcher wrote: What is your real motive here? You are running down everyone, from hobbyists to bonified associations, everyone is wrong, but you are right. j 4. My motivation is to inform people from my perspective. Do you feel threatened? Why? Im not running anybody down. I think Very highly of the people in all the associations. I have expressed sorrow for my teacher being used to bolster other peoples esteem such as yours (when it befits you) and left out of his live when I was a very intricate part of his life and we had many stories and adventures together. The fact that I was left out of certain things probably happened due to ignorance and political pressure put on him due to people who were jealous of me for whatever the reason. Dave Thatcher wrote: So I ask you, where is your body of work? 5. For the clients I did the work for. I live off of my work because I am a real artisan. So I take commissions and sell my work when it is done. That is what artisans do. I do have a lot of my work in world famous collections and museums however. Where is yours? Dave Thatcher Wrote: Where are your photographs of the armors you have made? Of course, you have nothing because your pretence of the client is confidential and you will hide behind it. All the other craftspeople post photographs and provide insight into their crafts openly on social media. But you hide yours? 6. Photographs? Why? I would only show my work to my clients and sometimes people qualified to judge it? I dont need to brag about my work. Yes. Craftspeople. Not artisans, though there are some online teachers who post their work for educational purposes. I don't, because I would only teach my students first hand. Its just my philosophy. Dave Thatcher Wrote: If you work part-time in the coffee shop (yoroi cafe) and restore armor, you are a lay-craftsman. When you posted, you told us you live as an artisan. Arthur is doing just that as he works full-time on his projects and is not restoring. I see many contradictions in what you write and many errors. 7. You have no idea as to the structure of the gallery/cafe/library. That and the fact that I work 19 hours a day every day. I love what I do. And recently I am here on the nihonto message board before my last shift, Im sure brian can attest that Im writing my blogs and signing in here at 1:00 am - 4:00 am. in the morning sometimes before I do the last coat of urushi. Arthur has been very honest in what he is doing. Why are you bringing him into this? He is striving to be an artisan and I respect him greatly for that. Please don't be jealous of him. Re; Contradictions and errors- first read my disclaimer. Then read it again. Then go back, read the article, and figure out where you fit in the big picture of things, debate the contradictions and errors. But please stop with the defamation and lies. Dave Thatcher Wrote: I urge anyone to take what you say here with a pinch of salt. 8. I would urge anybody reading until now to take this thread with a shot of brandy and laugh at how ridiculous this is. I actually feel like I am lowering myself by answering all the defamatory things that have been said about me by acknowledging this guy's existence. But I will for the record. Dave Thatcher Wrote: I'm calling you a fraud. 9. "FRAUD"..... funny you should call somebody else that. Mr. Thatcher, you have said some very terrible things about a lot of people. People who helped you out when you needed them. Are you projecting? I will warn you now that further defamatory comments will likely result in discrediting yourself further. Please stop.

Exactly. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding. I do agree with you actually. Im more talking about the arts themselves and the way of life rather than the restorations thereof. Basically the living culture. Armor is a bit different than other arts when it comes to restoration, the makers tend to be the most qualified people to do the restorations because it frequently does require replication of a nose or a missing ear or urushi that has the same colors or flexible properties if its a patch lets say. That kind of knowledge is best learned from a master in my opinion. And it helps to preserve the culture and structure supporting it. Over the years i have received so much second hand work that had been previously destroyed by people with good intentions and little or no experience. Once epoxy or non-urushi base has been applied, forget about using urushi without undoing it.

Yes yes. I know. Your point was well taken. There are also people who try seriously to put out a fire with gasoline. Ill post a new thread shortly to give an example.

I dont do netsuke, vases, etc. I do armor, koshirae, things that require real urushi work and materials that are period correct for armor and koshirae, and I am not aware of the lack of workers, in your field, or the necessity for work in that field. Im not sure if there are any masters at what you do, but if there were, the years of trial and error and the mistakes you made may have been averted before you made them. And there might be something passed on to you from a thousand years or so of history. So unfortunately I will have to say I am sorry but I cannot draw the comparison between your field of expertise and mine. I do know that there is a huge demand for restoration in my field. Unfortunately many of the people who pay ridiculous amounts for broken pieces, refuse to pay a skilled restorer a decent wage. So they pay unqualified craftsmen less. And get what they pay for. I dont need any more work. Im just saying that to keep the true living tradition alive, you really need to hire trained professionals who are good at what they do. That preserves and protects the living culture. Those of you who do not live in Japan are perhaps unaware of the current samurai armor boom. Yes, there are a lot of people who create armor out of various materials etc. because it is cool. Its a gateway drug to bad restoration because many of the people doing bad restoration started there. Arthur mentioned Marutake indirectly, they also used to do restoration services. It was so bad. I got a lot of their cases because they said they were armor restorers.... people believed them.... they ruined the item. Individuals dont even know the difference between Urushi and cashew. I was at the dai token ichi a few years ago and I picked up a koshirae and said you use cashew? and he said no, its urushi, I said not its not. He said it is, that what it said on the can. I said urushi doesnt come in cans. "cashew Urushi" is not a natural polymer. Totally different. Anyway, even a little proper training would help.

This is one of the reasons the the public, or collectors should be educated on the differences between that chinese garbage and the real thing. One advantage is that authentic armor makers have is the skills to produce a very good original from scratch. Those press companies make stuff from forms that they have kata for. It actually takes a lot of time to do a kata for a complete armor by scratch. Especially when you dont know what you are doing. They work for the mass produced market who knows nothing. They really dont make enough profit for it to be worthwhile in my opinion. A traditional armor maker should sell themselves on using authentic materials, and being able to make something in the right style. Something that is good enough to pass for the real thing...... Because thats what it is supposed to be: the real thing. Otherwise its the fake crap. In my own case, I choose my work and my clients. All of my work is kept confidential. Knowing my own work is good enough for me. I have never sold my own work as being real. As a matter of fact all my own work was pre-order. Regardless of whether or not it is the intention of your client to sell your stuff as real, or keep it and love it, you should keep it confidential. Its really nobody else's business except the two people doing the transaction. Whether or not they pay for your services (which should always be your best work) should be the only thing that you are concerned with. Check your morals at the door because they are not relevant in my opinion. I used to do a lot of work for Japanese members of the Japanese armor society. Then I found out they were profiting more from my work than I was. So I try to work for people who want my work because they want my work or work directly for people who put all the money from my work in my hands. Conculsion: Work=Money= use of skills=being able to survive off your work= preservation of living culture. Moral virtue is irrelevant. What is relevant is when artisans are ripped off by their customers. Just my opinion. One thing that everybody should come to realize is that copies and replicas of Japanese samurai art has been produced from time in memory. Hundreds of years later and many of the Muromachi period and edo period replicas have become Kamakura period pieces. If you know what you are doing, you can tell though. And I have tested my theories many many times using various technologies. But you have to try to strive to that level of perfection to be able to understand those imperfections. One of my shokunin friends told me that it is the goal of every artisan to do a replica so good that they themselves cannot recognize their own work. If you can do that, then you have come of age. I think that one of the reasons that there is a lot of badmouthing of people who are very skilled is because the people doing the badmouthing dont know enough to be able to detect their work and it scares them. Another reason that artisans should be employed as specialists..... Id like to make one last point about kozane armor such as O-yoroi Haramaki, etc. They are technically much easier than tosei dou. I am not putting down manufacturers of o-yoroi and haramaki but Please understand that they relatively less skill, albeit a great amount of time to produce. This is why so many of the lay-craftsmen focus on those types of armor. (in my opinion) For those armor most of the beauty appears in the kanamono. which are usually cast of common forms, rather than made originally. And the kozane are usually machine cut. ...