Miura

That helmet would be a worthy challenge. But not how the Tokugawa helmets were made. Anybody has a budget, let me know. 👍🏻And its off topic again! Haha. New daikokunari thread please....

Luc, you frequently quote very precise dates for your carbon 14 tests. Are you using AMS or traditional C14 ? Also what are the spreads for the various possibilities? One problem with the era in question is that is that things were changing so rapidly precise dates would really help for a greater understanding, but having a strong archeological background and having done such testing on various items myself, I know that specific dates are impossible. Even a spread of 20 years would help put things into perspective. Thank you.

Id be happy to contribute if you would like to start a thread on Daikoku Nari kabuto. Not sure how we got here from the original topic.

Does he have any diagrams of how he made it? Id be interested if he followed the same construction as the original.

Hi Everybody. Not 62 plate. Please count again. I think it is quite early for Saotome. Possibly Iehisa. Shiten no byo too high and holes on haraidate too high to be ienari. To Lucs point. It is difficult to tell if it was made from front to back or back to front from the photos. I can see places where it could be either, but the most visible places suggest front to back. This does not rule out Saotome though. Some Saotome makers, particularly early on, made helmets front to back similar to the Myochin makers. I wish I could hold it in my hand to study it.

Im opening this topic, having been inspired by some of the comments on the thread regarding the Sotheby's modern armour that was first mistakenly identified as Edo and then as Meiji. I just thought I would give a little insight into the topic from the perspective of an armor maker. One thing that I notice is the word "fake" being thrown around a lot. I even do it myself . I think we need to be careful about how we use the word, for one, because there are still some people such as myself making armor. Just because we create something in 2023, doesnt mean that it is fake. Im an armor maker after all, and I dont think that the art that I do is fake. The proper word would be "recent" . Even the word "modern" (gendai) in Japanese would imply that it has some modern technology, style, adaptation etc. that is of the post feudal or industrial era. For those of us who work traditionally, I think its a misnomer to call our work "modern". For context I'll relate an experience I had a while back, several years ago, I was asked to advise a rather famous shrine in Japan regarding their armor collection. The well known family that the armors belonged to, had an armor of a particular type and style made for each generation once they were named heir apparent of the household. The armors spanned approximately 260 years from the first generation till the last generation. They changed very little over time. Just because one was made in 1603 and one was made in say 1850, does not mean that the one in 1850 was a fake. In Japan they have the word "utsushi" which would usually translate as a "copy" However, I think that word does not translate as well as calling it a "mirror image or likeness". In the case of the armor that I and my teacher restored, the armors were so alike that they mixed up and brought out the wrong helmet and nobody noticed until I told them that they had brought out the wrong helmet for the armor..... In the case of this family the style of armor was created to bring happiness as it represented wealth and prosperity. Long story short. Just because an armor of the same style was made at a later date does not make it "fake". Just as a ferrari from 2023 is not a fake ferrari just becasue its recent. What I would consider a good use of the word fake would be likened to the word "imitation" such as imitation cheese - looks like cheese, tastes like cheese, but in terms of how its made, and what goes into it, very different, and selling fake cheese to somebody and telling them that it is real cheese is wrong. Regarding recently made REAL armor and swords; what people need to understand is that to make these things traditionally, it takes a lot of knowledge, a lot of time, a lot of materials, and a lot of skill. I used to make swords, nothing larger than wakizashi Ill admit as my forge was not large enough, but I was capable of producing a rather nice tanto blade with over a thousand layers in one day. But that is just a blade. A small one. Armor is a totally different beast. Multiple skills, various materials, and volumes of knowledge. What most people do not understand is that making an armor from scratch requires so much time, skill, and materials, that it is actually cheaper to buy an antique. Which is why most of my work time is put into restoring rather than making. One reason that most of the "lay craftsmen" stick to the creation of o-yoroi is because it requires much less skill, than it does to create a tosei armor, though it does require a lot of time and materials. Tosei armor, depending on the level of armor, requires a great deal of expertise and skill with a hammer, tagane, and iron/steel as well as various versions of urushi - an o-yoroi does not. Another reason that many lay craftsmen and professionals alike produce o-yoroi is because original antiqueexamples are simply not available on the market for sale. Therefore, if somebody wishes to have one in their collection, they would have to have one made by an armor maker. One of the last things that I did for my teacher before he entered the nursing home was to sell his "Kiku-ichi" yoroi to tsurugaoka Hachimangu. He wanted me to handle the negotiation with the shrine because its difficult to do negotiation for your own item, and it also requires somebody with enough knowledge to explain the value. Some of my talking points were: 1. How much the materials cost in the late 70s (when it was begun) compared to today. 2. How much time it took to make (it took two artisan 5 years to complete) 3. The fact that a national treasure kinko shi made the kanamono and how much that cost in the 70s. 4. How much it would cost and the time required to do it today. (it would cost around $1,000,000 dollars today to create an utsushi of the armor. 5. finally I said that the armor was already 30 years old, and it is still in perfect condition. This is a testimony to the quality of the armor, and that usually if an armor is not well made, it starts to fall apart over that amount of time. The difference between Miura sensei's "kiku-ichi" yoroi and most of the o-yoroi that you see made by lay-craftsmen is the skill required to make it. The kiku-ichi had a koboshi hachi with ornate hand done metal work. Most lay craftsmen's yoroi are o-boshi with fewer plates and cast metal fittings; much less time and much less skill. The Kiku-ichi was smaller kozane. Most lay craftsmen create o-yoroi with o-zane; half the time, half the work, and less skill. Artisans use urushi, lay craftsmen use fake urushi. These are just a few of the points. These detailed things are what a sword artisan or an armor artisan sees when they look at a work. 1. How much time, 2. how much skill, 3.how much materials and the costs thereof. To sum it up, this knowledge allows us to look at things from a totally different perspective. But it also allows us to determine authenticity and value. In conclusion I hope that my words here have helped to give a greater respect and understanding for REAL traditionally made Japanese art work. The armor that was being sold at Sothebys was indeed a fake Japanese armor because it was made to look like one from the outside, however, when examined closely, it is not made with the proper materials, nor the skills required to produce what defines a traditionally made Japanese armor. Hopefully understanding the great differences between real fakes and real traditionally made Japanese armors will encourage people to seek out a qualified artisan to create one for you.

Dave Thatcher wrote: Arthur, most people know you used the fake account Date Masamune on Facebook to troll me. 1. The Date Masamune account is NOT Arthur. Before I knew what was going on as I was not on social media at that time, I remember you speaking of a fake account you created, and I recall the name to get back at somebody for something I assume this Date Masamune was it. Dave Thatcher worte: You have been banned from many SM platforms. 2. So have you. And I assume many people have. But you always re-emerge with a new account for some reason. Dave Thatcher wrote: The fact that you have to bring your trash to NMB is pitiful. 3. What trash? Please be specific. Dave Thatcher Wrote:you fabricate information; you alter images on Photoshop and post hate and lies. Nothing good comes of this. You are toxic. 4. What images were altered? What lies? Im interested.

Dave Thatcher wrote: The completed armour was then submitted for Shinsa in Japan via my company,The Kokusai Nihon Kachu Bugu Shinko Kyokai (国際日本甲冑武具振興協) where it received the grade of Tokubetsu Hozon which was awarded by the shinsa team managed at the time by Mr Andrew Mancabelli. The armour is 100% real, and should you wish to fund a C-14 test, this can be arranged. 1. No. It was submitted by Dave Thatcher. Not Raimu or any other company. 2. The kokusai Nihon Katchu Bugu Shinko Kyokai is not and was NEVER your company. 3. I did manage the shinsa team. (an actual shinsa team.... not the fake "one" in England) And it was not an easy job. 4. The armor is antique, and restored. The level of papers is appropriate for an authentic armor, even a composite, in this condition.

Identify yourself. You seem to have posted photos under yoru Date Masamune account a long time ago that only Dave Thathcer and Myself had access to at the time of posting. What is your relationship to Mr. Thatcher?

Im not trying to beat a dead horse, but from experience, I can say that, yes, I have seen armors get broken apart and sold separately for more money in Japan and ALSO because not one dealer can afford the full price of an armor.... so they break it up and each dealer gets a part. But it is usually at auctions and it is done mainly for the dealers to sell to foreigners. What is trying to be done here is to educate people (you foreigners) as to why it is important to keep things togehter. There was one armor that I saw broken up and it took me years to track down the pieces and put back together. I also once found the missing mempo from an armor owned by Date Masamune misplaced that was put in the wrong box a couple hundred years ago (maybe the kids were playing with it) and ended up in Date Yoshikuni's armor's box which was sold off years ago by the family. It took me 25 years, but the armor was finally put back together, and it was only by chance. I made a mistake which brought me into the place that had the armor (and mempo) if I hadnt gone in there at that time, for some weird reason, it would have never gotten back together. I see people on here all day long talking about how its their responsibility to take care of this stuff... and they are only the temporary owners etc. Then take care of it! If you cant afford to by the whole armor, then don't. I would say the same thing for a sword with its original koshiare. There is much more to learn about the history of an artifact with a fuller context of the item. The more you take it apart and re-do it to your preferences, the more you ruin the context. There is plenty of stuff out there. Just find something that you like before buying something only to rip it apart and re-make it or only buy part of it because you dont have room in your house for full armors. Too many headless armors out there. Just my thoughts.

I saw this armor when it was still in Japan right before it was sold. Still had the proper sangu and the maedate that were in the photos. I dont understand why anybody would break up that matching set. Its just really weird that somebody would do that because it devalues the set as the kiko on the watagami matched the tsuneate. Now its a composite. Weird.

My god. We use one from that same company to show the way to the restroom in the yoroi cafe. Who advises england sothebys?

Ian and Chris, I agree on the hand braid. It does tend to last much longer as well, and you can tell by the size of the holes in the armor sometimes what it was made for, as the hand made braid is so tight that it requires larger holes. The problem is the cost, I hired probably the most famous braider in Japan to do a very special mimi - ito for me. They were supposed to do 6 meters for 40,000 yen. which I agreed to gladly. I get a call that my work order is done a few months later and I went in and they had two meters done, and they said it was 60,000 yen. The artist simply had lost interest in the work and quit (or died) I was talking to the company owner. Anyway we had to negotiate and I agreed to pay 20,000 yen for the two meters. 10,000 yen/meter (at that time about $100/meter) which I think is a good price in today's money. A full kebiki laced armor takes about 350 meters of lacing. Do the math. An o-yoroi takes less, and the weave is not as difficult but the amount of silk is comparable and if you do it using actual, true (akane or murasaki) dyes, dyed over and over and over, the natural resources are enormous to to perfectly. The reason that we, (armor makers) do not use hand done lacing for the majority of our work is budgetary. Armor makers are not braiders. In defense of the traditionally made looms. The lacing is very good, and there are adjustments that the weavers can make to the machines which provide very different product. You just have to know how to tell them what you want. I usually take a sample and tell them exactly what I want and they let me know how close you can get. As I explained in a previous post, the Japanese lacing has curvature which is important for the lacing to do its job properly and look good. Armor artisans will gladly do whatever you want, so will braid craftspeople, just understand the costs have to be passed on to the customer, and in Japan its standard for artisans to add a markup on material, though I myself do not. A cheaper alternative would be leather, Asa, or men fabrics. Which are also very time accurate for battle armors. Most of the battle armors from Kamakura/Heian period in Oyamazumi Jinja are leather or asa (hemp) laced. That is the best, unmolested collection of early battle armor in Japan. (from the Armor maker's perspective) Best, Andy (Miura)

If they still had liners, I would prefer ship. Better yet air-ship. I hate airplanes as fast as they are I get off with a broken back. Im 190cm and just living in Japan has stunted my growth, the reducing plane sizes are a slap in the face.

I remember seeing a lot of his stuff appear on the market around 10 years ago. I think you are right, too much at one time will drive prices down. Some is pretty good art. The kabutos were never that good for some reason though. I dont mean as art, I mean as kabuto.

Ian. You have my utmost respect. And for that I also have respect for Mr. Nishioka. I am not criticizing you at all. I know black and white can be perplexing as to tone and context. Im sure your memory is exactly as you stated. My point was that the methods and results that Mr. Nishioka reported were odd or incorrect. I have made awa boshi in the way described and it did not have the results that Nishioka reported. I think at that time he was leaving out a few important steps in the process which is why he was not successful. Since that time I bet he has finally correct those mistakes. There are many processes used in the production of rivets during the Heian-Muromachi periods. Please forgive the misunderstanding. Generally I try to make commentary without roping myself into educating the general public on each and every process of armor manufacture so I tend to leave out details. Regarding my "nom-de-plume". Thank you, I have earned it and I was given it. It is quite hard working as a foreign artisan in Japan with all the politics and badmouthing. I can't understand anybody being jealous of what I have accomplished though. Most people would not last two weeks in the environment that I endured. The registered name of my company is Miura Anjin Kobo limited. I shant be changing it anytime soon. cheers.

Hi Graham, Id hate to leave a business partner hanging so I will give you some good advice regarding the fakes and internet auctions that Jauce and buyee serve for free: Find a good advisor who really knows what he/she is doing and is honest enough to give you an unbiased opinion that isn't trying an angle on you. In my own case, I charge for my services. After being defrauded recently, I now charge up front or on retainer.

Odd. It looks like more than one kind of kanamono holding on the shikoro. Neither correct for the style of helmet.....

I love this story and it makes my point about artisans getting ripped off by the collector/dealers. The attitude of Kinokuniya is alive and well in the Japanese art world and so is the feeling expressed by Yokoya Sōmin.

Just from experience I can see at least two things wrong with how the awa boshi were made according to what you said.... .which is probably why he wasnt being successful. there are several different ways of making rivets, with different radiations of designs on general and local levels during different periods. Im pretty sure that the skill level of the maker of Awa boshi was higher than the skill level of koboshi maker. Id expect that the katchu shi himself would have made the total kabuto in the Heian-Kamakura period, where the rivets for koboshi were (in many cases) done by the deshi (apprentices) toiling away specializing in one size. The plates koboshi kabuto would have been done by the armorer himself in my opinion, with top level understudies imitating the work and perhaps doing easier kata in the beginning. Bamen can have very complex angles, and so can Soshu Koboshi, and so on. Just the hachi itself requires great skill of a senior artisan. That's my strong opinion about what was going on in those workshops.

Hi John, Thanks for following. I just thought that this tsuba had designs of money or actual money inlaid as a design to the surface of the art object since we were discussing valuations of how much things sold for, and Chris had mentioned brass. I would assume that this tsuba sold for at least as much the face value of the money on the surface.

There are a lot of kanteisho floating around that give some perspective on the evaluation of armor in the Edo period. From the Kokusai Nihon Katchu Bugu Shinko Kyokai Library 12 plate helmet by Yoshimichi 義通 (sometimes referred to as "Gitsu" in the modern era to differentiate from Yoshimichi　義道 "Gido") valued at 15 gold coins. 3rd year of Shotoku (1713)

Food for thought. From the Kokusai Nihon Katchu Bugu Shinko Kyokai Library.

Hi Chris, I have heard the same thing, and I think at a very early point that held true. From what I understood, the Japanese didn't know how to make it. This is one of the oldest Inlay I have had. I always thought it was telling because it looks like they intentionally cut out parts of the inlay, I thought to use to pay somebody in the stead of money/coin. From the Kokusai Nihon Katchu Bugu Shinko Kyokai Library