ROKUJURO

Yes, this was a breaking test, not cutting! Interestingly, the blow was not executed with the MONOUCHI. Maybe it would have broken then. I have no doubt that the blade was damaged to an extent. I don't quite understand this kind of test.

Ian, to preserve the function of the wooden liners (as of any wooden SAYA) I do not recommend the use of linseed oil as this will probably be soaked into the wood, harden and seal it so that moisture cannot evaporate. This is why you should never leave excess oil on the blade when storing in a SAYA. My experience is that an old SAYA (or old liners) are difficult to clean unless they can be scraped inside to make a new surface. The cheapest functional way would still be new liners after the dent repair/removal, I think.

Ian, if it were my project, I wood proceed as follows: As I understand, it is a military metal SAYA with wooden liners. One could surely pull out the liners with the risk of destroying them if there is no other way. With a metall tool 'custom made' for this task, I would press out the dents in the SAYA. Then I would take some wood (if HINOKI is not available, some other acid-free wood like apple or cherry may be suitable) and make new liners. I know that many NMB members will not like my recommendation, but that is the way I would choose if a low budget does not allow for SHIRA SAYA which would of course be the best option!

Alex, it looks like a precious one! We did'nt see it before the treatment, but looks nice now!

Yes, that looks strange! Probably some famous Chinese 'screwdriver' MEI that remain a riddle even to the experts (SUMI MASEN, I am none of them)..... My impression is that the NAKAGO shape is also a little off.

Gentlemen, while 'rocket science' is based on new technologies and trials, a lot of mathematics and astronomical theory, modern developments and materials, the crafts of the Japanese swords are mainly based on practical experience with a simple technological background and very basic material. We admire a well-made SHIRA SAYA as work of art (which it deserves) because we cannot imagine how it was made so precisely yet gracefully. We are not used to work with carefully chosen wood that had been cared for lovingly for years before it could be turned into something useful. We are not trained in the use of very fine but nevertheless simple tools in a way that you could close your eyes and continue working with the remaining senses. A Japanese SAYASHI can probably 'see' with his fingertips in a way we could only achieve if we devoted our lives to just one small department of woodworking crafts. That is what they can and what they do. The difference between the Eastern way and our Western approach to the crafts is quite a gap as we have problems to limit our attention and concentration to a narrow field. Maybe we need more modesty or even humility (which Japanese people seem to have without even being aware of it) PLUS the skills PLUS the experience to attain the same level of craftsmanship. Understanding the function of an item in all aspects is based on long time learning, and tiny differences may cause big problems. Just think of TACHI no SAYA in comparison to KATANA no SAYA! In the end, intense learning about the arts of the Japanese sword will lead to a respectful admiration of the work of the many specialist craftsmen who had put their respective skills into a sword as a joint venture. This respect may also lead to refrain from any attempt to make a SAYA or related object. On the other hand any craft can be mastered to a certain level by anyone who is devoted and not impaired in one way or another. So some people may feel a certain curiosity or challenge to try their skills on their field of interest. If this is done with a well-based knowledge and responsibility, it not only should not harm but probably lead to a deeper understanding, respect, and admiration. Again, this should not be understood as an encouragement to start a SAYA production!

Brian, I understand perfectly what you mean, and I don't encourage people neither to experiment with these valuable artifacts. On the other hand the NMB can only inform and encourage collectors to find a good way of care and conservation. Unfortunately, you cannot prevent people from doing silly things with their swords. In nearly forty years of collecting I have seen and heard of so many incredible cruelties being committed against these arms (not WITH them!) that trying to make a SHIRA SAYA of one's own might be judged as a minor sin.

Brian, while I fully understand and support what you are expressing, I would like to mention that it is not in the NMB's responsibility if someone damages his blade(s) by wrong handling or treatment! Instead, I find it a good thing to discuss the properties of a professionally made SHIRA SAYA which in fact may prevent collectors with limited craftsman capacities from trying to make one. I absolutely admire the Japanese craftsmen for their capabilities but with all due respect: they only cook with water - as we say in Germany. So learning to understand their work may in some cases include to give it a personal, very careful try in the respective field. And when you know what you are doing the danger of damage is minimal. This applies in my understanding to SAYAMAKI and TSUKAMAKI as examples, but probably not to polishing. This is only my personal opinion as a trained craftsman.

Curtis, the MEI does not look like a chiselled one, it seems to be stamped. I have never seen such a stamp on a genuine blade, but I am not a specialist in this field. If you showed some photos of the blade, we might be able to tell if this is possibly a mass produced new China fake or a WWII blade. Silver TSUBA?? Does not sound good as well!

Curgan, there are some videos about SAYA MAKI to be seen on YouTube. If you show these to your woodworking friend he might be able to judge himself if he would be able to make SHIRA SAYA. But as Adam wrote, there is still the side of the materials used. You want to use resin-free, acid-free wood with even and fine grain. As HONOKI/Magnolia is not easy to find I have made SHIRA SAYA from apple-tree wood which seems to work fine. As a toolsmith, I forged my own tools (the chisels) for this purpose, copying Japanese original tools. I also used Japanese planes which are available in Europe. The main thing is to fully understand the purpose of a SHIRA SAYA: it is an almost airtight protection for your blade(s), which in itself should not harm the blade chemically or mechanically. Another side of the project is the shape which should be as close to the originals as possible. I wish you good success!

Ed, thank you for sharing photos of this unique piece of Japanese arms history! Very interesting! However, I would like to make a remark on the technique it was probably made with. To my knowledge there was no unfolded iron at that time except from some early production of cast iron in China. Iron was obtained in a process comparable to the TATARA, and the result was mainly sponge iron (the high carbon parts of which are TAMAHAGANE) which had to be homogenized before attempting a production of any kind. This was made by repeated folding and fire welding the material, and in some places your photos seem to show a layered construction. This may indeed be layers of corroded material, which could be a hint to the manufacturing process. Please have a close look. Probably you have scientifically researched about this magnificent TSUBA, so I would be interested to know how the production process was seen by the specialists.

Denis, I have waited a while to let the more knowledgeable members raise their voices but maybe the question is too simple. I will give it a try: The answer is no, as different characters have different meanings. KANJI were 'imported' from China, where the language is more differentiated in the pronunciation. The Chinese can hear the differences while the Japanese language does not allow this which sometimes leads to problems even in a dialogue between two Japanese. As far as I know there are 32 different versions of the KANJI 'Sho' and almost 20 for 'SHI' (I may be wrong in the numbers) which is a good base for problems. The German language may be good for some comparisons here: the writing of family names like Mayer, Maier, Meier, Meyer, Mayr or Major might be different, but the pronunciation is (almost) the same. For a foreigner this may seem strange, as in Germany you have to ask how to spell these names. The same applies to YOSHI in Japan. You have to ask: Which YOSHI, please? Hope this helps and is not too far from the truth.

Gentlemen, I plan on giving a violin concert some time soon, but until now I don't know how to play. Somebody out there who could give me a hint on how to build a violin?

I agree with you as far as the surface is concerned. Indeed, steel can have a grain on the molecular level, but metals do not have pores or interstitial spaces. If it were so, oxygen could penetrate deeply into metals and corrode them internally. But as you know, archeological finds of steel often are heavily corroded superficially (we had some nice examples lately here in the forums), but if cut open, the metal core is completely intact unless there are cavities caused by the working process or accident (cracking). This can happen by repeated folding and incomplete fire welding, but also by insufficiently refined basic steel which may contain remains of slag or scale (seen as FUKURE or WARE in a blade). What we see as HADA are tiny welding seams between layers of the steel, and they indeed represent an increased surface for oxygen attack which is why we regularly inspect and clean the blades. But if the smith made no mistakes, these small surface irregularities (if compared to a glossy polished surface like MIGAKI-JI) do not go deeply into the metal.

Ron, could you please explain what you mean by 'porous'? If you had raw TAMAHAGANE in mind I would not have asked, but ALL metal? Do you refer to the surface which could be ground, filed, hammered, or polished and be more or less easily attacked by corrosion?

Interesting little TSUBA! I don't think that the rim displays I no ME decoration. To my old glass-eye it looks like flower petals, but the picture came only half the size so maybe I'm off.

I read that MEI as NAGASHIGE. It is also on the tag.

Dan, before you spend your money on TSUBA that are probably not useful for the purpose, why not ask the TOSOGU expert members to provide some high resolution photos of fire welded steel TSUBA which you could easily magnify. This may do the job as well or better (I hope).

Thank you, David, this was indeed helpful. And don't worry: I am not going to produce 'old' TSUBA in large numbers! But there is so much to learn and as I have some experience with steel I find an approach from this side useful and informative. Still, I have the feeling that in many TSUBA different techniques have been used in one place, and I think that besides the mechanical work chemical treatments - you may call them patination, etching, artificial aging, bronzing or browning - were playing a major role in the surface treatment. As an example, TSUBA from KANAYAMA or YAGYU are so different in their feelings and looks of the steel itself that I find it difficult to believe that they fell from the anvil ready with their respective surfaces. TEKKOTSU is, as mentioned above, something that will not protrude from the TSUBA surface by itself. So there are still some questions left open for this life and the next....

Pas mal. There are no details shown in your photos so it's difficult to give a well-based opinion. Obviously it is SURIAGE (shortened) which could have had different reasons.

Pete, thank you for your explanation and the pictures! However, I am still not quite sure how the surfaces in many TSUBA were really treated. If we have a look at a TEMBO TSUBA there is probably little doubt about how the dimples and stamps were executed, but the beautiful KANEIE TSUBA displays nothing like hammer marks although the surface may have been worked on with TAGANE and a hammer. Why then should we call that TSUCHI-ME JI? Could it be that many TSUBA experts can make statements as to the provenience, age, and style of a TSUBA, but do not know enough about the manufacturing process? This may sound like a provocation but as I wrote above, many descriptions seem to lack a deeper understanding of the metal itself. As an example I would like to mention the definition of TEKKOTSU which is often repeated but likely wrong as being 'hard steel bones'. Also, I get the impression that many descriptions are just copied from what was written some time ago, especially in western languages, as there were only limited sources for Non-Japanese. However, I was not going to criticize these authors but I am really interested in the techniques behind the descriptions and would like to read other's opinions as well.

Gentlemen, in descriptions of TSUBA I have often read about the different techniques to produce certain surface textures. While I can understand most of the expressions and can relate them to the use of the respective tools, I am unsure what is understood when TSUCHIME-JI is mentioned. When I work with a hammer I can produce a very smooth surface almost without any trace of the tool. When it is intended and the hammer face is small and closer to ball-shape I can produce shallow indentations which are easily visible as such. I would call that TSUCHI-ME JI. David, please allow me to cite your comment in the description of your latest purchase, the KACHUSHI TSUBA, just as an example: '.....The plate is well forged with a fine TSUCHI-ME-JI surface.....'. While I cannot be sure to see every detail from a photo, my observation is that of a surface with remains of black lacquer the texture of which I would like to call ISHI-ME JI as I cannot see hammer marks. There are many ways to texture different metal surfaces, and stippling with a fine hammer might result in very fine indentations just like ISHI-ME JI I have seen on soft metal TSUBA, and that might still be called a hammer technique. My question is what can be called TSUCHI-ME JI and can you draw a precise line between techniques performed by hammerwork and others made with punches or similar tools, MIGAKI BO, YAKIITE or chemical treatment? Are there perhaps several techniques found in a single TSUBA surface?

Ben, no, I cited the thickness.

Matt, if you had a 99.9% pure iron blade then it would be worth something because this material is quite expensive (see: http://www.aksteel.eu/de/1-produkte/0-reineisen/). On the other hand you could bend it with two fingers (or three...). So I am quite sure that the jeweler's spectrometer can perhaps tell tomorrow's weather but is not as precise as you would like it to be. If it had measured 99,4% or less, then I would have believed the remaining percentage to be carbon and this would have left some hope for a good tool steel. Stainless steel is another story: to make a corrosion resistant steel you want to have about 17% of chromium in the alloy. If your sword proves to be stainless as it looks to be, then the spectrometer is perhaps only working for gold alloys.

BENSUKE, welcome to the NMB forums! I hope you will enjoy the NMB and learn a lot as I do! Your feeling is quite correct: If properly placed, the TSUKA will not be supported on the KATANA KAKE, otherwise the cutting edge might damage the SAYA. By the way, your blade seems unusually thin with 0,55 mm...... Please sign your posts, it is a rule here.