Paul Martin

Moriyama san, I hate to disagree with someone who is a native speaker. However, I have just checked my understanding with two different sources. A swordsmith and a kantei-shi. They described tempering as yaki-namashi, and yaki-modoshi as I previously described. However, I would not class myself as being anywhere near knowledgable of Japanese language. I still don't understand English fully . Best

Hi Alan, Japanese terms can be a bit ambiguous at times. I understood yaki-modoshi to be for when yaki-ire does not come out as planned, so then the smith has to re-heat the steel and let it cool naturally for it to return to almost its original condition before starting the process again. The repetition of yaki-ire is what we had been discussing and is called saiha (or saiba). Best

Grey's description of saiha and fire damage is correct. To add to that, the condition of the nakago usually deteriorates quite badly as in your case, becoming rather pock marked etc. Photos are hard to judge, but it looks rather flaky of the photo. The following is serious by the way, but try smelling the nakago, to see if it has been adjusted or re-patinated using chemicals etc. Also, rubb your finger on it then lick your finger to see if you get that chemically taste or tingling. Here are two nakago taken form a recent article by Tanobe sensei on saiha. They are both by Yasutsuna. The one on the left is ok, the one on the right is saiha. BTW saiha or fire damage brings the same results to the nakago as the original patina is lost.

One nice thing I have noticed (photographic distortions permitting) is that if you follow the line of the nakago, from about 2 inches past the mekugi-ana the nakago kicks back. IE the curvature does not continuously follow its line. This is a typical feature on tachi that were adapted to be worn as katana.

Looking at the condition of the nakago, it looks like, as someone said earlier, that it has either been in a fire or is saiha.

I think Kudos to all who made an attempt, particularly Jean and Brian. Despite Jean's comments I think it is most definitely down to that fact that as Jean said, he has held and viewed some of his works, no luck about it experience counts and that you (Jean ) have learned that you can recognize Tsunahiro even from a photo. Eric's kantei was also excellent, also obviously had contact with a few of this schools works to be so confident. I have seen quite a few Kunihiro, ranging from hada like the one posted, nie-deki, to well forged examples and even Rai-ustushi-mono. My personal mistakes were: 1, I didn't read the hints (ie.saki-zori) and just looked at the photograph. 2. After seeing some rather shallow sujikai yasurime on some Kunihiro, I ignored the fact of the kiri-yasurime and Jean's concerns of them. 3. Ignored my own concerns of the nakago-jiri, and went off on a whim about the horimono. However, even though I know the result, the overall shape, feeling of period and feeling of the piece still reminds me of Kunihiro. It starts out with a small yakidashi like piece and gradually builds up along the blade and kinda climaxes in the mono-uchi/kissaki area. I have only seen one Fusamune and it was the tanto in the Boston Catalogue, with a very differently cut horimono and (probably due to the polish and photography) the hamon seemed rather different also. Tsunahiro, I have seen one some years ago, and do not remember much about it. Thus, having these in your hands for study means something. Kantei is an excellent learning process that cannot be beat. At the end of the day Kantei like this is a learning tool, a game if you will. So the next step for all those of us who did not get atari will now probably go and study up further on Tsunahiro, Fusamune and Shimada school and improve your skills for next time. Which apart from enjoying the swords is the point of the kantei game. In the simplified rules of Kantei-nyusatsu, Kunhiro (which interestingly got the most amount of votes--even after the result ) would likely be Jidai chigai, iya--wrong period wrong province, because everyone accepts for Kantei-nyusatsu that he was a Keicho smith based in Horikawa. Fusamune - douzen, correct school and close to the actual smith, Yoshisuke (Gisuke) Tori correct period and road. Heian-jo Nagayoshi- iya, Correct period wrong province. (*Rules and opinions vary slightly depending on kantei-kai and/or judge) However, as kantei-rules are for the game, they do not reflect the closeness of everyones guesses they are only a guide. I think that no-one made any drastic mistakes. The biggest problem doing kantei like this is peoples pride at having to display their best guess in front of the world (hence the lack of participation). In Japan, only the judge knows your answers and in most kantei-kai they use the sanbon-nyusatsu system (three guesses) to which you get hints (ie. iya, yoku, tori etc) which adds to your learning curve. Best

I think Jacques made a good call straight off. I think that Aoi are trying to show us zanguri-hada. I have seen some quite open examples by Kunihiro. However, I think the answer also lay in the horimono. My first instinct was Kunihiro (and most of the time you should go on these gut feelings, but then the reasoning side of your brain takes over). Looking at the expression of the dragons face, I began leaning to Etchu no Kami Masatoshi (also because of the nakago-jiri), but the pieces above the dragons head are carved in a similar way to how Dewa daijo Kunimichi carved his, and I knew it wasn't him, so that brought me back to Kunihiro. Also the feet and the spine of the dragon are very Kunihiro. Masatoshi and Kunimichi usually carve the typical gripping feet, whereas Kunihiro's dragons have the spread feet. Just my thought processing out loud as it is 4 in the morning here and I needed a quick break from translating. Best

Fudo Myo-O One of the most popular horimono is the image of the Buddhist deity Fudo-Myo-O (Acala). Surrounded by flames, he is the foremost of the five 'Kings of light' in esoteric Buddhism. His angry stare, indicates his judiciary position, intolerant of evil and wickedness. Fudo-Myo-O, the Immovable King of light, holds a rope in his left hand and a straight double-edged sword in his right hand. The hilt of the sword is a vajra (esoteric Buddhist ritual implement). The three prongs of the vajra represent the Buddha, the Lotus and the ultimate reality. The rope is to bind the enemies of enlightenment whilst the sword is to cut through the illusionary world to the ultimate reality. Carvings of Fudo-Myo-O come in several different forms. Sometimes it is the simple sanscrit character for Fudo. There are also several variations of Fudo depicted by a dragon wrapped around a sword (the sword is Fudo's sword whilst the dragon is a symbolization Fudo's rope). The patron deity of Japanese swordsmen, Fudo is the representation of the immovable state of mind, that swordsmen try to attain through regular practice. This does not mean to become static, but to be unmoved by the distractions of the illusionary world and to see the ultimate reality beyond the illusions of life and death. The two small hi are a reresentation of gomabashi-chopstick like utensils used in a buddhist ritual to fead a fire from which Fudo-myo-o is invoked Best

Hello, You should contact Lody Duindum of Token Sugita/Token Taikai in the Netherlands. He is responsible for the Nanbantetsu project and can answer all your questions. Also, he has swords of reputable quality for sale. I am sure he can help you. He is close to Amsterdam. Best

Here's the direct link on Keith for anyone having trouble http://tetsu.town.sakaki.nagano.jp/jika ... useum.html best

It looks like it is trying to be: Nagasone Okisato Nyudo Kotetsu

I was just testing to make sure you were taking notice :D If you read the original Japanese I posted, it reads correctly ( I did say it was a loose translation :D ) Also, Chumon uchi was a relatively unknown smith, often called Chu by his good friends. Best

I just come across this and thought about this thread. It is from Katana no Kansho by Nakahara Nobuo *.....* Loosely translated, To call swords that begin with Bizen Kuni Osafune Ju chumon-uchi, and swords that begin with Bishu Osafune kazu-uchi mono has absolutely no basis and is nonsense. Best

Nagamori Saku (Eisho 1504) Takada Katana Hacho (Nagasa) 2 Shaku 5 Sun 4 Bu Sori 6 Bu Shinogi-zukuri Iori Mune. Mihaba Hiroku Saki-zori tsuita Goto. Kitae Itame hada Nagarete Hada Tachi Ji-Nie Tsuku. Hamon Suguha Ni Ko-Midare Majiri Nioi-Guchi Shimari Ko-Ashi Hairu. Boshi Asaku Midarete Ko-Maru. Nakago Suriage Yasuri Katte Sagari. Nagamori ha (wa) Shodai-Bunmei, Nidai-Eisho toiu. Made by Nagamori (Eisho 1504) Takada. Katana. Length 76.9 cm. Curvature 1.8 cm. Shinogi construction with iori-mune. This magnificent blade has a wide mihaba and saki-zori. It is forged in a flowing itame-hada with prominent ji-nie. The hamon is suguha mixed with ko-midare. The nioi-guchi is tight, and has ko-ashi. The boshi is a shallow midare with ko-maru. The nakago is suriage with katte-sagari yasurime It is said Nagamori Shodai was around Bunmei, and the Nidai was around Eisho Saikaido-Bungo Kuni-Nagamori

Seki Ju Nin Fujiwara Masatsune Saku

In term of ART, sword collectors are still relatively very fortunate. You can still get reasonable old swords at reasonable prices compared to other areas of the art world. Even the prices to pay for very old good swords is still favorable when compared to old masters in the art world. Also, take a look at the ridiculous prices charged for diamonte covered skulls and compare it to a tachi by Amata Akitsugu or Ono Yoshimitsu etc. The glass is half full... Best

Hi Reinhard Thank you, I had realised my mistake. In a moment of doubt, just before leaving the house, I made the mistake of posting hastily. I am not sure if it was just timing, but I had since retracted that part of my post before your reply. I promise I will not do it again. I have not once tried to imply this is the droid you are looking for, only inform people of the correct suriage process, which many people had not heard about. Yes, there are spurious blades with kiri nakago-jiri, but there are also many mumei blades trying to pass as suriage with iriyama-gata jiri etc. This, and the point of the line of the hamon, the authenticity of the sayagaki and the overall shape was just highlighting one of the many points to look for when assessing blades, hopefully giving the many members of the board a broader view of not only looking at the nakago to assist them in making up their own mind on this and future occasions. These points were not directed towards someone of your obvious knowledge and experience. As for the Yasusada, again, just an illustration for the members with points to look for, but then again not all people were as skilful as the Umetada school in suriage etc. Best regards

Another good sign is that the nakago-jiri is kiri. Here is a good example of suriage. The yasurime above the inscripiton are different. In this case, as it had a kinzougan inscription on both sides, the togi-damari had to be painstakingly removed on either side. Also notice between the arrows the remaining line of the original hamon. Here is the nakago in question, if you follow the line of the hamon into the nakago, it appears to be going to where it should. I have no idea if it is gimei or not. I was just trying to point out that the person who shortened it appeared to try to do a good job and appears to have followed the rules of suriage. I do not know the reason to choose different yasurime to what was previously a blade, but there are many suriage like this. Best

Just to quote what I originally said. I was just explaining the suriage process how it should be done and the signs to look for. Rather than focusing only on the nakago, another fundamental point would be to look at the shape of the blade and imagine it in it's original shape. or even a closer scrutiny of the sayagaki

Hi Stephen, I think it is definitely Saku, his Aizu and Ju are also quite funky :lol: Best

Hi Jean, If you are asking what I think you are asking.... The clear division just above the mei is not from bending but from where they stopped filing so as to save the mei and surrounding patina. Above the division (adjusted) is the new kiri-yasurime, whilst below (preserved) around the mei is taka-no-ha. Also, the nakago of this blade would suggest that it has been shortened more than once. as per you previous question, which side you remove or bend depends on which side it is signed and you are trying to preserve (tachi-mei/katana-mei etc). I hope this is what you mean. Best

As everyone has said previously, to kantei this blade through fuzzy photos cannot be done. However, try not to confuse good or bad suriage with forgery. I agree the extra mekugi ana and plugs look somewhat strange. The major premise in all cases of suriage is to save the original inscription and/or some of the original patina etc. This is where good or bad suriage comes in. In the case of this blade the nakago is different on either side. This is actually a good sign as on the sashi-omote the inscription has apparently been saved. When a blade is shortened the togi-damari (rather thick bump where the polish ends) must be adjusted or the habaki will not go over it to get to the new machi. Compared to the rest of the blade the nakago is reasonably soft and can be manipulated. Rather than work both sides of the nakago, it is a better process to remove steel from only the side without an inscription (sashi-ura) then bend the nakago back inline with the rest of the blade. Please see this diagram on the corrct suriage process. http://www.token-net.com/faq/12_suriage_img.html In the case of multiple-suriage like this one possibly is, on the second (or so shortening) the blade is filed on both sides to just above the original inscription and all the way on the sashi-ura. Hence the change in the patina, the dividing line and differing yasurime above and below the dividing line just above the inscription and the complete difference the whole length sashi-ura. The narrowing of the shinogi-ji in the area of the plugs is also consistent, as that area was not filed as much so as not to disturb them needlessly as they may be original from the first suriage. There are also other factors to be taken into consideration when performing suriage such as niku-oki (the meat of the nakago) and the need to remove the hamon in the area of what is to become nakago by heating. If this is not performed filing will be extremely difficult, and even when it is done the original line of the hamon is still visible and the uneveness of the yasurime can also be felt when running your fingers over it. Best

Thank you. Correction, but an interesting one. It is not the same sword, but one with a serial number with a difference of 13, and a painted number with a difference of 10. Best

Actually, There is an oshigata of this blade on my gallery page. It was NOT my sword at any time, someone asked me to take an oshigata for them. Just out of curiosity could someone provide me with a link to the sale please. Best

I think its Aizu Ju Shigetsugu Saku Best