thank you, I appreciate the help. I was also wondering if these could have been something other than menuki, maybe buttons of some kind? I know I've read that some "menuki" were actually from tobacco pouches. these have a post in the back but neither one is long enough to be able to be inserted in the holes in the surface of the samegawa, they look like they've been clipped and or ground down. they don't look like typical soldered on menuki posts to me and the menuki appear to be cast rather than made via uchidashi