Gakusee

So Sue Aoe (from end Nanbokucho / early Muromachi) is described below in Nihonto Koza. See attached. I shall admit that they do mention shiraki utsuri as possible, so I was wrong 😑 on that point. But the jigane (while not as clear as the developed / mid Aoe ”saeru” that succeeds the slightly more rustic koAoe with its possible sumihada and less refinement) is not rough. Could you be commenting on state of preservation whereby the core hada is showing through? Note the Sato sensei clearly states sumihada is scarce. And also note that there is a specific clarification on nioi only. Overall, I do concur that it is a big sub-school with some varied workmanship. Some flamboyant and vivid and some more subdued and subtle.

Interesting… However, sueAoe does not have rough jigane, utsuri is not really shirake and it is not nie rendered. I do get that sometimes the boundary is blurred between konie and nioi but we do not really see Aoe in nie and also there should be clear, distinct and nice (saka) ashi. Even in Eirakudo’s photo, they do not look like typical Aoe ashi. How does it feel in hand (lighter or chunkier) and is sugata more graceful (Enju) or heavier set with wider mihaba (probably more sue Aoe)?

This is not Aoi (which has its own distinct photo graphic style). This is Eirakudo and it is pretty unique in maximising the contrast in its photos and working with shadows etc

I use the same maths as it is effectively 3 and 0 repeating indefinitely: 3.0303 etc or 0.3030 or 30.303030 etc. Very easy to put in a calculator I personally put this in the calculator for this above: 2.47 x 30.303030 for result in cm

Well, Kiril, it could be because everyone scampered off to the “secret forum”, you oft like mentioning. And frankly with this polish, these photos and this lighting, it could be almost anything between Bizen- and Mino-inspired something to something else.

I have owned (not anymore) a blade from them. The blade did not disappoint me and had everything the photo showed. Well, difficult to disappoint as it was a zaimei Ichimonji blade with sublime jigane and active hamon. I have also considered buying others from there but one needs to examine closely the ones with thin hamon or hamon close to the hassaki. Since the contrast is indeed so powerfully magnified, sometimes the habuchi appears stronger than in real life, where you can be disappointed. So in real life everything is softer and more subdued than their vivid, high-contrast photos.

Bear in mind the contrast is maxed out, shadows and definition have been tweaked

To sum up: - Yamato, Yamashiro and Bizen (book 1): currently available in their Japanese, original versions (and have been for a while actually) - Yamato and Yamashiro translated by Markus in English currently available to purchase - Bizen book 1 in English (Markus translation) available some time in 2026

Actually outside of online forums Guido is a great person, entertainer and intellectual. I like his sardonic wit and analytical mind. And as some of you know, his Japanese singing ability is also quite impressive. However, sometimes people on this and other forums could be friendly in person, but they just don’t behave “online”. Please focus on the positive sides of this hobby and do not expend energies bickering.

Hmmm. Not the fine itame mokume style of Norishige (so well regarded at TokuJu) and yet not quite the beautiful and desirable matsukawa hada. Quite a bit of hadatachi and nagare in a style in-between. Some other Norishige blades have what looks like utsuri (eg attached). Here there are some spots which look almost like sumihada but it is not clear what it is. One will need to look into the sayagaki in detail… And yes, the habaki is exceptional

Alex if I am not mistaken you are into Mino? Or perhaps I got that wrong. This is Soshu style and hence quite ara nie heavy. Not for everyone indeed and I also prefer a more refined nie experience.

Not really H, need to pursue this more Both are late Soshu/ Soshu inspired but not quite top Soshu. Therefore when you see such Soshu like works which are not as refined and sophisticated as top / core Soshu, you default to Sanekage or Tametsugu. Perhaps not enough nagare or togari for the N Shizu attribution

There were several threads a few months ago about faking Juyo swords. Chris / Hoshi commented on them and a few others. Someone in Japan has been “re-creating” Juyo rated swords off the oshigata in the Juyo books. Probably stolen or misplaced Juyo origami which the person on Yahoo somehow got hold of. The authentic Japanese swords were properly forged and imitated the hamon but there were differences to what one would expect of the original. These were supposed to be high level swords (Go, Awataguchi etc) with genuine Juyo and TokuJu origami but the nie was not right or the specific hataraki, though very close, were not an identical match to the oshigata or TJ photo or the nakago was ever so slightly off. Worthwhile checking these threads…

You are looking at a grossly enlarged image and over exaggerated kizu. In real life these will be barely visible due to their tiny size. However, the positive features, ie the vivid and rich utsuri combined with the rich hamon activities will always be there and visible. Speaking from my own experience, I have noticed that we as collectors have started obsessing over the slightest defect in these usually highly enlarged images, which, however, with the sword in hand, are either not noticeable or barely visible. To compensate for that, I have started scaling down the image, still on a high resolution large screen, to real size (usually measured at yokote and/or machi) in order to get a sense of the real scale of the kizu. I think it is clear that 3 and 5 are good quality Nambokucho Aoe.

Don’t get discouraged - people cannot tell much in some cases. I think most of those who commented conjecture that 3 is probably the best. Number 2 has interesting hataraki and utsuri but the jigane is tired….And of Nanbokucho Aoe one expects high quality and refined jigane.

On the basis of these photos, I would not buy any of these. To me, an exciting hamon, full of hataraki, even if they are delicate and small ko-ashi, is a prerequisite. Not only does that signify greater skill and steel but also I find it aesthetically more pleasing. Here I cannot discern that on the basis of these photos and all I can adjudge is the sugata. Frankly, probably because my expectations are high, as a Bizen collector I still have not bought an Aoe blades after all these years….

Ray,you cannot expect a thorough view based only on sugata, unless you only ask about shape….. With Aoe, one needs to look at: 1) Jigane: is it fine? 2) Utsuri: is it dan utsuri (common for the Nanbokucho Aoe you are sharing) 3) Hamon: are there delicate saka ashi so typical and desirable of Aoe? Etc. Unless you attach the side, angled photos showing these characteristics, one cannot formulate a proper view as the hadori obfuscates the hamon and one cannot opine on the utsuri etc

Alex FYI. However, I do not wish to digress in Rayhan’s advice thread, so let us please adhere to sharing advice / tips etc. He means well at the bottom of his heart.

Ray One or two comments from people from a certain country cannot equate to the entire country or be a representative sample. Indeed, you have contributed a lot to the study of swords in the U.K. and even here (eg, sharing all the scanned magazines and books!) and internationally (eg study sessions in Japan). You have trodden the tortuous path of collecting numerous swords from various sources (eg people could refer to your publication of your previous collection) and experienced first-hand numerous dealers and people in the community. You are trying to share some of your painful experiences so that others do not get burnt the way you did previously. Our To-Ken Society (which numbers 220 members by the way, not the 2-3 which are more vocal here) is grateful for what you have shared in terms of study material. The desire and ambition to educate is noble and yet the approach needs to be proportionate and appropriate. What might be pertinent for a certain member might not be suitable for another. We are all grown up here and can decide to heed advice or not. Unfortunately such is life - whether in politics, religion, business, hobbies etc. People sometimes listen/learn and sometimes choose to ignore what they are told. We as humans are all flawed like that. There are numerous valid tips you share above. In fact, I would say the advice you give is concordant with the straightforward “canon” in Japan. But emotion as well personal circumstances (and most importantly probably the lack of funds) might prevent people from following that archetype. The economic factor as well as impatience (covered elsewhere) often prevail. Please let us adhere to educating (or trying to). There are various lecturers and teachers here on this board (I know a few and they are prominent members of the board and the nihonto / armour / dealer community) and they can also attest: you can teach, explain etc but it is up to the individual student to wish to learn, follow recommendations etc.

This could well be Naoe Shizu, some exceptional Tametsugu, rough Sa school

@Rayhan @Bugyotsuji Given that you two, esteemed gentlemen, are both in London currently, whilst residing elsewhere permanently, I think you should grab a coffee or cocktail. Knowing both of you, I am positive you will get along nicely and can discuss your disparate collecting interests, spanning much more than nihonto….

But this blade (1310) posted by Chris above is the only one in the Kozan with a relevant date in the relevant era. The others either do not have nengo or are dated 1318 and 1328. The important point, again flagged by Chris, for people to realise is that indeed the tangs in the Kozan are drawings and artistic interpretations of the mei, but are not truthful oshigata. So the Kozan is a source which summarises actual existing blades and dates etc but one cannot look at the Mei and try to compare it for veracity and accuracy to their own. I do trust that source and would not go about saying it is full of gimei etc. Quite the opposite in fact as it tends to have famous and ex-daimyo blades, so with higher chance of authenticity.

Hope that you feel better soon and that it is nothing too serious. And as to this thread, the opinions have been stridently stated, arguments passionately made pro and con, and it is clear that one approach whilst well-intended might not fit everyone. Digging one’s heels in is usually counterproductive and I echo we ought to respect each other’s views and positions.

So gents, let us indeed adhere to a neutral and civil tone of exchange. Ray, when we were starting out 20-30 years ago, there was less info available, fewer purchase / learning choices in the Western world, we had fewer contacts. The world has moved on a lot in the intervening time. We and Japan have also moved on and opened new doors. Yes, I made the conscious choice to wait for 8 years between when I became a timid and intermittent visitor to the Token Society of U.K. meetings (surrounded by slightly sceptical but dauntingly knowledgeable elders, some of whom are still with us today but some of whom have sadly moved on to exist ethereally among the celestial daimyo) and my first proper purchase in 2009. Perhaps, for someone with multiple hobbies and interests, the incremental gratification or utility derived from a sword / tsuba / fitting etc purchase might not equate to the gratification or utility derived from other activities or hobbies and hence people might spend earlier / faster / less on this hobby. Psychologically, also the burden of a larger expense made after a lengthy saving period is heavier, as opposed to a smaller and earlier purchase. Furthermore, nowadays with instant (and most importantly, English-language sword-related) information availability, the various social media proliferation and better social connectivity, I can understand very well how people are less patient. Perhaps they also feel more secure in an earlier / cheaper / smaller acquisition. We cannot impose on others what we feel is right for us or for our circumstances. Your approach is not a taboo but perhaps less popular and less endorsed by newcomers, given the world we live in today. Eventually people do learn to be more patient, once they are confronted with polishing or papering in Japan, which could mean years of being parted with one’s sword.

Ray I suppose what Jussi implicitly references is the fact that a commercially purchased blade has an inbuilt profit margin realised by one or, more likely, several dealers and resellers. Therefore, when, or if, the time comes to dispose of it, one will very likely sustain some loss, unless the blade is a very sought-after (usually big) name, which has appreciated over the holding period. Broadly, the latter is not impossible or improbable, and we have seen it recently with specific smiths. For instance, Norishige and Muramasa have really styrocketed in the last 10 years or so. There are some Shinto names which have also appreciated palpably, eg Horikawa Kunihiro etc. This is only anecdotal from my limited observations but there are professionals on this Board who can attest further. Some friends refer to this potential loss of return on resale as “tax of enjoyment and study” of the underlying items. This “tax” can of course be minimised with some shrewd shopping, ideally directly in Japan, but one needs to beware hopes and expectations of a profit or meaningful financial return. Exceptions are possible, as in every field…. Personally, I have also decided for myself it is better to save over a medium period of time and buy swords only very occasionally, but periodically let go of some items over the years. That does not diminish the enjoyment of the hobby at all - I still meet very interesting people, become engaged in related events and so on. But the excitement of “ownership” is not there as one becomes blasé after a while, due to the plethora of swords and fittings one could be exposed to. Sometimes, viewing/holding/ studying items without necessarily owning them is fulfilling and rewarding enough.