Gakusee

I would say, firstly start with the correct orientation of the inscription, and then try to decipher it

Well, good luck with the sale in any case. For those in NY, please go and see the swords. It is a great visual treat.

Your are right. But it is OK. I am also having a laugh. Joking aside, it is a great blade but I am not sure what their pricing thinking has been lately. There has not been a wider benchmarking of the global market, which they ought to do….

Talk of someone who wants to play in the big boys’ playground Frankly, the prices of top pieces have nothing to do with chin chin or not.

Ok Stephen, grand old royalty like you deserve to be given the info. This is said not in jest but with my best sentiments. This is from the NBTHK magazine.

look up the auction sale poster and you are in for a surprise….

Out of the above three, the tanto is the best. Mind you, the Yoshioka Ichimonji is also gorgeous but the price estimate is extremely ambitious. Dare I say, unrealistic.

Jacques and Patrice, For the sake of clarity to forum users, it will be useful to point out that: - the NBTHK certificate uploaded by Patrice is not a qualification diploma or certificate of graduation of a course or training; - it is not a document certifying capability, knowledge, expertise per se in absolute terms etc the way a university degree or technical college diploma might be. No training course and no exams have been taken for these to be conferred (so Jacques, please be careful not to conflate these in your typical attacking mode); - it is a certificate acknowledging that Patrice submitted to the annual NBTHK competition a sword he polished and achieved the rank “nyusen”, the precise interpretation / translation which I am not capable of, but loosely it means something like “his work has been deemed competent enough to be accepted and recognised in this endeavour / exhibition”. I know several European non-traditionally-Japan-trained restorers (in the U.K., Italy etc), who while not formally having completed a full-length Japan-based polishing training period (and thus not having the government diploma of togishi recognition which comes at the end of that training period after passing an official exam) still achieved that “nyusen” recognition. In fact, my Italian friend Massimo has several of these diplomas, which I have seen at his home. These certificates clearly indicate a level of capability and skill recognised to some extent by the NBTHK, and deserve the credit / merit they imply. The “fully traditionally trained”(often Japan-based, but not exclusively) polishers often display skill higher than nyusen, and achieve even higher-rating diplomas and awards. All of that is very public and disclosed in Japanese by both the NBTHK and NBSK (which also organises similar) every year after the awards are granted. But people need to be very clear about what these certificates and achievements are and what these are not. So, I am not defending anyone in the above discussion of what should have been done/said in relation to Catawiki, or taking sides in this debate, but just hoping the above clarifies the matter a bit with regard to such certificates.

Or it could be they doubt how the shu mei exists today. For instance: It could be that “Nobufusa” (very well preserved part of the shumei) was added subsequently above the Koson mei (much less well preserved). In principle, Koson tended to write the attribution on one side of the nakago and put his name and kao on the opposite. That is how I have seen it, including swords I owned. Here everything is on one side and also the different parts look slightly differently. Regardless of all this speculation, it looks like a gorgeous sword and Tanobe sensei seems to have verified it, so all seems good.

Thanks. I am very clear on the “to mei ga aru” implications. Well, if Tanobe sensei has verified it, that’s great. Its sugata is truly wonderful.

Well, excellent, Chandler and thanks for sharing. Is there also an NBTHK paper and what does it say? Nobufusa is a rather rare attribution.

Ray, I think it was recently disproved that the Yoshimitsu was a saiha blade. It was believed to be so, but the latest interpretation is different. I have held the Yoshimitsu in my hand and it is a truly sublime blade….

Jacques, we went through this already. Refer to my post above with the excerpt from the Sano museum book, by the highly renowned but sadly now late Watanabe sensei, which splits hamon types into suguha and midareba. Written in both Japanese and English for you. End of argument. We are wasting time and effort and precious life energy.

Are we discussing this image? I would describe it as predominantly sugu-gunome in monouchi with some notare areas and with nezumi ashi. [But depending on in-hand examination, one could interpret some of the horizontal hataraki as kinsuji]. The lower part is gunome midare interspersed with choji midare, togari, yo and ashi. [And again, depending on in-hand examination, some of the areas of nie in the hamon could be areas of shimi]

BA or also pronounced Ha in other conjunctions and as in the word Hamon. Hardened sharp edge Midare: irregular

“Sussed” or not, Alex, it is still amusing to engage dialectically with Jacques just to disprove some of his grandiloquent statements. He is often right in his views but sometimes they could be very extreme.

one has to love you for the comical effect, Jacques, like a pantomime villain…. As I said, translation is ChatGPT for those who cannot read and understand Japanese. I appended the original Japanese text and as you know it says exactly that…. Of course, you are not commenting about the key point, namely that Watanabe sensei differentiated between suguha and midare as the principal types of hamon and instead you choose to digress….

yes, we agree on that indeed. These two above are not mainline Tadayoshi.

As Jussi highlighted, Munetsugu is the one who signed katana mei. But even not mainline, he is still a Hizen smith. Another rare bird is Muneyasu (student of Munetsugu I think) - fewer swords of his are around and also he signed both ways. And just to preempt Jacques, he is a Hizen smith and there are connections with the Nabeshima daimyo.

Have not checked thread, but did anyone recommend to you Markus Sesko’s Tosogu Classroom? If not, I think both you and Dee will benefit from it.

Oh, Jacques, why does it have to be so difficult? I patiently waited and resisted throughout all the pontificatory edification as I agree with the concept that people need to master the basics. But a bit more humility and grace will serve us all well. Midareba (irregular) is a type of hamon, it has always been and will always be. Of course, it is preferable to elaborate what type of midare we are talking about: gunome midare or notare midare etc but sometimes the hamon is simply so all over the place and composite that one part is more choji heavy, another part is more notate, another might be gunome. Whatever is most prevalent will normally precede the term “midare” so you find descriptions such as “choji midare with gunome elements at the base” or “notare midare trending to ….” Etc. Again - please. You have a lot to give and contribute but we are all learning still…. Even after 20-25-40-50 years or whatever in the hobby we are still all beginners. ———————————————————— 刃文とは刃先の白い模様のことで、焼入れによって生じ、研磨によって白く輝く。 日本刀の重要な鑑賞ポイントであるとともに、流派の特徴や刀工の個性が表れるので、 鑑定でも重要なポイントになる。刃文は直刃と乱刃に大別され、乱れ刃の中でも形状によって細かく分類される。 また刀文が刃文にとどまらず棟のほうまで及んでいるものを棟焼という。また同様に模様が連なることを連れるという。 English Translation: The term “hamon” refers to the white patterns along the edge of the blade, which are created through the quenching process and made to shine brightly through polishing. Hamon is not only a crucial point of appreciation for Japanese swords, but it also reflects the characteristics of specific schools and the individuality of the swordsmiths, making it an important feature in sword appraisal. Hamon is broadly classified into straight patterns (suguha) and irregular patterns (midareba), with the irregular patterns further subdivided based on their specific shapes. Additionally, when the hamon extends beyond the blade edge to the spine of the sword, it is referred to as muneyaki (spine tempering). Similarly, when patterns continue seamlessly, it is called tsureru (continuation of patterns). Copyright: The Great Masterpieces of Japanese Sword (Watanabe Taeko, Sano Museum) Translation: ChatGPT

You should buy Mike Y at least a drink for that service He did pull one there…. Well, Jacques, back then at the DTI it did not have the sayagaki. But of course it had the Juyo paper, one could handle it in person and discuss with other people (if in doubt) and Miyoga Jr san. So, these are indeed pretty much ideal circumstances for someone who is perhaps not too confident. All in all well done again! Enjoy it and learn from it - it has a lot to offer at all levels of scholarship.

yes Brian, it is a gorgeous blade. ATM was lucky I only came for the second DTI day and looked at it too late …. Well done on an excellent sword at excellent price. To me, that was the “steal” of the show in terms of quality per dollar basis.

Only decorative and in homage to historic armours. Not actual date of relevance to this.

Amusing thread… I debated mentally whether to chime in or not (with the passage of time I more and more tend to just read and tolerate things I disagree with, since life and mental health are more important…) @Dan tsuba Tsuba Iconoclast Dan: I will only say here that treasures can be found on Ebay by those who have the knowledge to do so. I have two friends who have found very high level blades by top saijo Koto smiths on that marketplace. Personally, I have not managed on Ebay but have had some modest success dabbling on Yahoo Japan (even more treacherous…) Have a read of this thread here: This is probably before your time on NMB….Anyway, the knowledge possessed by the protagonist led him to acquire a masterpiece in this auction, have a window opened by a polisher and then sent to Japan for top-level restoration. The blade went on to get Juyo etc etc. The same I think happened to another one in the same auction…. Years later another friend found on Ebay a nice tachi, etc. I see various people trying their hand at “removing rust”. I try to discourage it but people often have their own pre-formed inveterate views, which cannot be altered. It is true that there are low-value swords which will probably never be restored professionally and will probably languish in a sad state. One could strip the active rust with choji oil etc, perhaps get a window done….etc Newcomers in particular should be discouraged from such attempts, despite their being skilled in other hobbies, having a dab hand at other handicrafts etc. It is as simple as that.