truelotus

Hi Chris ... thank you for the information ... I'm gonna look for the book and learn more :D and oh, I forgot that I am a member of Toyama ryu ... dated back from Gunto no soho academy on the wartime :D I once used a Kanesada blade(and it cost me an arm and a leg, you know), but now I am using mantetsu blade as it is cheaper (Kanesada has been sold long time ago) :D will update you with new pics as soon as i got it. Thank you very much

Hi Chris ... thank you, for the warm welcome :D actually, I am not a collector, not a true collector I mean, as I started my love towards Japanese sword via kenjutsu practice, how a piece of metal could be so beautiful, so intricate, so alive, yet so deadly I have several books, including copies of very old Japanese sword books in original brought by a friend of mine from his Sensei in Japan, and I do read them all. now, regarding your question whether I had the chance to handle a Japanese swords, I do have the chance, as my friend is a true collector, though it is definitely not as many as yours, that's why I am coming to this forum, to know more :D why I brought this piece into this forum ? because I have handled soooo many fake Japanese swords (and several, which proved to be genuine) in the past, and most of the fakes are poorly made and you can easily spot a fake within seconds I can say that there are very few Indonesians knew enough about Japanese swords in the past, to sufficiently produce a fake with so many details as a real Japanese sword should be. and the sword in pictures above had correct curvature, quite a nice shape, kissaki seems correct (details most copycats forgot to copy), smooth shinogi-ji, and the nakago though seems crude is in correct form. However, I do agree that this one is somewhat suspicious, the tsuba and seppa, the placement of mekugi ana, the crude form of habaki and the nakago .. so ... I already asked the owner to provide clear pic of hamachi and munemachi, close up of the kissaki and the blade to be able to determine what this piece actually is :D please wait for my updates :D

yes, and indeed the Japanese had already ordered a special sword to be presented to Mr. Sukarno on Indonesia's independence day ... I have never seen this sword, but I knew some details on it ... http://www.to-ken.com/articles/giftspresentations.htm about lookalike swords ... I personally handled several of them, and one is proven a genuine kaigunto blade in indonesian mounting ... the rest is junk and lack many characteristics of real Japanese sword, and easily distinguished from the real deal :D but this one blurred the boundaries between real and fakes ... that's why I am coming to this forum :D

Hi Keith ... nice to see you here ... about IJA troops in Indonesia, there are many stories here in Indonesia, and not all IJA troops are savages and many built a smooth relationship with many families in Indonesia, mostly chinese descendants. One of them gave his arisaka rifle and his bayonet along with his sword to one of my relatives when IJA surrendered, in hope that the weapon will be useful to fight their common enemies (allied forces) and as gift of brotherhood. Sadly, only the bayonet is now remain, as the rifle and the sword are given to local military office. so, not all Japanese troops considering Indonesian as enemy ... about the hamon, I agree with you, but about the yokote, you can see in 1st pic, reflection on the kissaki shown a geometrical yokote (but I may be wrong) :D but I agree with you that this sword is somewhat suspicious ... tell me what part do you want to see closer to make a judgement and I'll do my best to provide it :D

wondering why weird stuff keep appearing now ... got an offer for "Japanese sword left by IJA in Indonesia" from one of my friend ... the owner said that his grandfather bought this from an IJA troop, after Japan surrendered to allied forces in 1945 as usual, I got first picture, which looked like this with information that the handle (tsuka) is not original ... so it's fine if the shape of the tsuka is rather odd now ... the sugata looked correct, and the blade seems in good condition ... or too good ? the blade is somewhat short for gunto, and not in gunto mounting so I asked for close up pics and here what I got ... part of the blade, habaki, tsuba, seppa and tsuka ... the round iron dots is actually thumbtacks placed to the tsuka to prevent the ito from falling apart, and it is done in 1960s I think the habaki and fuchi are somewhat crude and with number / symbol which looked like 69 on the habaki ? cannot see any trace of hamon, though details of poorly wrapped tsuka ... seppa and kashira looked suspicious to me details of the blade ... now the boundaries between real and fake are starting to blur ... the shape is correct, with signs of shortening the kissaki and yokote (very rarely found on fakes) ... again no trace of hamon seen, and I still cannot see the hada clearly ... is it there or not ?? the most intriguing part is the nakago ... it is mumei with single mekugi ana shown below the nakago is in correct shape, without any mei, except strange logo 69 on the tip ... we can also see that the fuchi is crude and most definitely not original (someone jerry rigged a copper tube to make it) now ... what do you think this sword is ?? is it real or fake ?

yeah, I've seen the "same" or whatever it is behind the menuki, the only thing that looked original to me, since all other are dubious. Actually, I see the "same" or fabric behind the menuki, since it is not looked like same at all, and the wondrous thing is the wrap looked tight, even without the same ... this is also raising a suspicion to me as you may have seen originals like this, I have seen sword quite like this sold in Indonesia in full shin gunto dress and proved to be a chinese fake ... the blade tells the story, the mounting is a cast made from original gunto mounting, yet in low quality. I still incline to say that this was a copy, BUT whoever made this surely must hold the original as pattern to make copies see this example of kai gunto http://www.keris.biz/pedang/003%20WW2%2 ... fficer.php but still I cannot say that my opinion is 100% true, as I am not handling the sword in question in my hand, whilst the picture may tell only limited information :D so I think it is better that we incline toward the safe side until we have more information

this is the best example I can get from "last ditch mounting" ... and well ... I still believe that yours are fake, and the maker has one gunto in hand ... though I cannot be sure until I see and hold the real thing http://yakiba.com/Kat_Masamitsu.htm to me, the way the habaki aligned with the sword, the shape and sori of the sword and the lack of same is the key point of pointing that 90% this was a fake ... but there's still another 10% ... the way the ito wrapped and the menuki ... :D

hahaha ... the 1st one is nco gunto aluminum handled version in very good condition check this out : http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_070.htm it is a real thing ... but the blade is machine made ... thus this kind of swordis only worth as military relic ... :D

the first and the third is genuine NCO gunto ... machine made blade the second is type 98 gunto ... showato, if Im not mistaken ... nothing special but with so few pics of the blade, you should be careful :D

my opinion : 90% chinese fake .... 10% last ditch original gunto Ive seen several swords in "last ditch" mounting, and even it was crude, it was much better than this one ... but I may be wrong ... the habaki is not alligned well, the blade is poorly made ... hamon is suspicious, nakago is not well made, and with odd shape ... even an NCO sword has better shape ... looks to me that if this was indeed a copy, the man who did it held an original one as to make pattern mould the only thing that looked good is only the way the ito wrapped ... but once more, why wrap so good without same ??

the saya looked like a type 3 gunto saya ... though repainted I do agree that the blade is most likely not a traditional made :D

updating kissaki pic ... and reveal a very sad story T_T

so either way it is a lost cause, right ... too bad :D

thank you, Morita-san, and do tell me if you plan to visit Indonesia ... will do my best to treat you with nice dinner here :D so in conclusion, the sword is gendaito and at least 400 years old, but with broken kissaki ... what a shame ... but it is interesting how we can find real Japanese sword stranded here in Indonesia, far away from Japan ... wonder how the previous owner brought it here ... must be a story :D

wow ... thank you very much, Morita-san ... really appreciate your help here one more, what did the character "GO" means ? thank you

That's all I got for now, Jim :D

I got a hunch that this blade was indeed an old and real one (not a fake) ... but I am concerned about the kissaki ... well ... we better wait for the owner to submit the original kissaki pic :D

thank you very much, Morita-san :D any ideas on what the letter said ?

we have the same opinion here ... I already asked the owner for the pic of the kissaki and will upload it as soon as possible :D

Hello all ... once more, I come up with yet another new finding ... I think this should not go in this forum, but since this has something to do with Japanese military occupation in Indonesia, I choose to put it here ... if you think this is a wrong place, let me know, or simply put it in the correct place ... now to the sword :D the story behind the sword (not yet verified) this sword is said to be given by Japanese government representative to a leader in cultural heritage society in Java around 1940s (Japan invaded Indonesia in 1942), and first time I heard it completed with "letter" ... my first thought was this must be a fake ... but as usual, courtesy here dictates me to answer the request, so I asked him few photos of the sword firstly, bear in mind that there are very few people in Indonesia, who knew or have knowledge about Japanese sword, thus it is usually very easy to spot fake swords ... but this one is different ... with my limited knowledge, I'd like to know your opinion on this one teaser first : yes, this one is in shirasaya, not in gunto mounting, with gold embossed kanji but only one character :D pardon my knowledge, but by simply looking at this picture, we can see that the sword has been shortened, and this one has 3 (three) hi ? pics above shows part of the blade, sadly I think someone once tried to remove rust by sanding it ... cannot see any hada or hamon there, but the shape of the Hi is beautiful and deeply grooved, unlike Chinese fakes this is the overall view, with "certificate" seems odd, right ?? but I cannot read kanji, so I need your help :D this is the "certificate" ... funnily, this one looked like "pre-NBTHK" version ?? ... or just cheap copy ?? now we are approaching the suspicious end ... :D this is the overall view of the blade bit closer look from another side now ... since the kissaki is on the odd shape ... what do you think ? the tip is damaged ? chipped ?? destroyed ?? or this simply a fake ?? or perhaps something like this ? http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/suriage.html#satsuma-age because the style of re-shaping the nakago is somewhat correct and this cannot be done by someone who did not know about Japanese sword any opinion ?? thank you ... UPDATE : pic of the kissaki now I know that this was indeed an old blade ... it must be a beautiful sword ... once ... before some idiots trying to test it - I suspect an idiot think that a Japanese sword like this is indestructible ... so he swung it to a hard object and broke the sword ... and then try to reshape the kissaki ... and whoever did that is doing a terribly horrible job ...

can't agree more, Jean ... that's why I just made "curious bargain" ... if it goes, then it goes :D

well ... I tried to make and offer, in light that this sword will help me learn about traditional polishing method ... but I doubt that the seller will consider my offer of USD 125 :D

it is indeed a funny specimen ... note that this supposed to be a NCO blade, aluminum handle version ... but the tsuba dan fuchi does seems wrong, as both are not from NCO gunto ... however, it has genuine gunto (not NCO gunto) saya ... well ... I may be wrong :D

well said, Keith ...

just want to add one thing : bamboo is stronger than screw ... knock your sword, and the screw may break, and jumping out of the blade, thus when you swing it, the blade may fly away in order to find its own target without notificatio bamboo on the contrary, when faced with countless bumps and knocks, will break into fibers ... these fibers are still able to hold the sword in its place, even though the sword is rattling in its place when swung, and this is also a notification that you should change the mekugi ASAP :D