Geraint

Ferromunchicus Australis!

Hi Justin. Is that three mekugi ana?

Really didn't intend to hijack the thread, only posted these as examples of late and poor work and as I said may be nothing to do with the tsuba we await. Having said that I am not really sure about much else, the tsuba on the left appears to have had the plating worn through which would account for the oxidation you note Christian. Marius, the poor photography does indeed make them look fresh though neither has been modified recently. Let us hope that the original tsuba that started this is a much better example and that what we shall see is indeed uttori and that it is worth talking about. I only posted these to illustrate a point.

In the meantime here are the two I was referring to. Apologies for the poor photographs but I think you can see all you need to. The first has a textured copper plate to which have been fixed stamped dragon roundels, the whole thing then gold plated. The second is much more interesting in that it is a copper plate which has been covered with well done nekko gake and then gold plated, lead sekigane and a well done shakudo fukurin complete the treatment. It may be that neither of these has any bearing on the one that Jason is describing, we await pictures.

That's it, Mariusz. "Electroplating, the last also called gold plating." The two tsuba that I referred to are in my opinion gold plated/electroplated. If the tsuba that started this thread is electroplated then it is most likely a late attempt. Pictures of the tsuba may make it obvious that we are not talking about something like this, I mentioned it as a possibility. If I get a moment I will take a picture of the examples I have which may help.

Hi Mariusz. I was distinguishing, in my own mind at least, between gilding (fire gilding or mercuric gilding) and gold plating. The two terms are usually taken to mean different things, at least in this country. My point was that we are not going to get much further unless we can see what we are talking about, bearing in mind the number of ways in which the gold could have been applied.

Hi Jason. Tricky one without an image. Depends a bit on exactly what you mean by, "gold and/or brass overlayed". There are discussions elsewhere on the board about gold plating and if that is what your tsuba is then my thoughts would be that this was a late technique and often applied to pretty up a sword. I have two tsuba on swords which sound exactly like what you describe; both are clearly made from copper and then have a thin gold wash over them. I suspect that this would not indicate a school or style as it was used to make articles more saleable at the end of the Meiji period. If however, your tsuba indicates thin gold foil used as a covering, uttori, then that would be quite a different situation. I think we need that picture. Cheers

Hi Peter. Whatever it is I like it. As it seems to be suriage how long do you think it was originally? Also what about the boshi? The two things that piqued my curiosity were the pronounced muneyaki and the strong ji nie, neither of which I would associate with Shinto Bizen, though of course, everything is possible. Did a search and guess what came up? An earlier message board reply from some guy called Peter. I do not suggest that as an attribution, merely a rethink. What do you reckon? All the best.

Hi Jason. As no one else has responded let me at least offer some thoughts. You must have a good eye if you can spot hira niku from illustrations! To deal with your points in reverse order, yes his blades do have hira niku and of course the shape, including niku will be altered by repeated polishing though a good polisher would do their best to retain characteristic features of the smiths work. Your question sent me searching for oshigata and information and here are my conclusions. Late Muromachi katana sugata is typically for one handed use. The kasane is thin and the shinogi runs a little closer to the mune of the blade than in some periods. All this would tend to appear as a flatter section between the shinogi and the ha, especially in photographs. However this from Token Bijutsu No. 37, of a katana by Magaroku Kanemoto, "the hiraniku lacking substance making a very flat appearance is characteristic of the Suemono produced at the end of the Koto period, and was a common trait of Seki works in particular." Happy Christmas.

And just when you've made a decision......... Hi Hoanh. Just for what it's worth the sword looks like a pattern identified in Fuller and Gregory as a 1895 Naval prison and shore patrol sword. If so it will have a fouled anchor engraved on the back strap and on the lower end of the scabbard. They describe it as very scarce. If this is the pattern then the blade is secured to the hilt by a male/female screw through the nakago and the tang may be undamaged. I came across one with a katana blade by Yoshitake so it might be worth a closer look

Hi Grev. Well, the seppa look to be fairly standard gunto with one additional pair that do not have the piercing for the scabbard clip. The habaki is silver foil and the saya appears to be a civil one with a rather basic hanger and a leather combat cover. Seems to be something missing from the lower end, perhaps an additional layer of leather as a drag. The tsuba is signed but I can't help you with the mei from this photograph. The sleeved fuchi is unusual though they do crop up from time time; I seem to recall a recent thread about these. I would have expected this feature to have been on a much better fuchi, the hilt fittings of themselves would seem to be late and pretty ropy. If I was a guessing man I would suggest that this was civil sword dressed up for the war, interested to see the blade. Cheers

So this is Nidai, same source. Sorry about that, long day. I see Martin has found some for you too. Art and the Sword has two oshigata for the san dai and suggests an early style mei and a later style one. I can post them if you want.

Here you go Matt. Looks like a nice find to me, hope it all works out. The oshigata is from Art and The Sword, Vol. 2 Very worth while getting hold of if you are looking into these smiths. All the best. (Sorry, idiot moment, this is the Ist gen, I will catch up in a bit.}

Well I certainly enjoyed it Chris, I second the award! Christian, "lantern rouge", if I understand your reference correctly that was a nice try but I fear this thread is doomed to run and run......,

Welcome Rick. As Ron says, there are several people who are interested in matchlocks so some pictures would get the conversation started. Looking forward to them. Cheers

And getting your posts moved to the right place is just one of the courtesies you can expect on this forum! Welcome.

Hi Natahan. I think Brian has spotted some really important points about the sword. If you have a look at the comparable wakizashi on here, http://www.ricecracker.com/ you may find it helps throw some light on the sword you are working with. (Item 517). Edit Admin - Link added http://www.ricecracker.com/inventory/it ... imitsu.htm Oei Bizen sugata tends to be slender and given a rather hard life might result in the very slim sword you describe. If large amounts of metal have been removed from the mune that might also produce the slightly strained sugata. While I can quite understand that on first sight an over polished sword with a very slender sugata might be categorised as a boy's sword I think this was a mistake. Once you have the idea it is hard to shake it off and this may be what has occurred. If the market rate for a fairly healthy, polished and papered sword by one of the Oei san mitsu is $19k then a severely worn, unpapered sword which has lost many of its indicative charcteristics is going to be significantly less. I am sure we would all be delighted to be proved wrong on this as a tribute to what we have all learned through the man's work, I look forward to other comments. All the best

Just so long as Martin knows the difference................

Hi Gwyn, Have a look at it with a lens, if it has been there for some time then might well be kiri komi, alternatively if more recent than the last polish, (shudder!) then could show some indication of this. Polishing out one and keeping the geometry of the blade correct would be a bit of work and they are often left because of this and perhaps for the romance. Cheers.

Hi Denis. This one seems to have been kicked into the long grass so let me resurrect it. I can't do enough with the koshirae image to see detail so points may be irrelevant but here are some things to think about. If the leather collar around the fuchi can be gently slid up the tsuka what do you see? This looks a bit like a cross between civil mounts and late war. At the length you quote it is basically a wakizashi, some people would want to call it an o wakizashi or there is a term which seems out of favour at the moment which is chisa katana. It is possible to find nakago that have been modified in a variety of ways to fit military koshirae but they are almost always done very well, this one appears to have had a hard time of it. Assuming that the sword all fits together tightly and seems to be of a piece then the possibility that it is a last ditch sword, assembled hurriedly from what was available suggests itself. No answers but some ideas for you to kick around. Cheers.

Lovely sword, Jean. Is that a vote for Denis to resubmit his blade?

The sword that Lee refers to is an interesting case, wouldn't it be great to be able to go back and ask the shinsa panel what their thinking was? The bigger picture has been well put by Paul but it leaves an interesting point for Dennis. Nakahara has some interesting things to say about the relationship between papers and the market for swords, admittedly blindingly obvious if you have given any thought to the mechanisms of the art market. As is so often stated the sword should be the first point to consider when dealing with any attribution. Given that the sword is mumei I can't imagine it making a great deal of difference what paper it has and of course there is always the possibility that another shinsa team may assign the work to a smith of lower ranking. My suggestion; enjoy the sword, use it as vehicle to research the smith and the school, save the cost of re submission for your next purchase. Most of all, enjoy the sword.

Hi Dow. Looks alright to me. What would make you think it a Chinese copy and why are you buying saya?

Hi Matt., Welcome and if you ever get down to the far south west let me know. Cheers

Hi Lee, really interested to hear about your sword. The suspicion that papers were issued for reasons other than scholarship around that time would hardly seem to apply to a sword by 6th generation Shigetaka. Also can't work out why someone would bother to produce a gimei of that smith when others would be far more valuable. You clearly have really good reasons for calling it gimei, would you mind sharing those? Always interested in that line and the bigger question about the papers makes it an interesting topic. Cheers