raiden

Kiwamei means an attribution on ausually a unsigned piece.

there are some kokinko also similiar to that wave tsuba as well. thats the best i can do for the 10 second kantei by pics.

forgot to post the Hikozo paper

Nishigaki kiwamei from the pics

shakudo, kin uttori

Steve, for fun just give your judgment of this tsuba, I know that kantei is impossible by pics (I have said this many times), but this is for the sake of argument. Just a school and time period will suffice.

one last item, what we do for clients of ours is go through their items that they are considering for submission, and pre screen them. If an item is a signed Bushu Masa someone, and the tsuba is of fair quality, I usually do not recommend it for submission, especially if the signature is an easy one to verify. But if the person has a very excellent tsuba like this one (no papers yet), then I say put it in the shinsa, as the quality speaks for itself therefore in my opinion a piece worthy of submission.

AGREED!!!!

What the collector decides to do after his/her happy result is up to them. Myself personally , I take a harder look at the piece and remember it as a good example of what is is. But I do find it true, when a person gets a happy result, they do not complain at all, just some want more information.

Since you have not given an exact situation, I cannot answer, I can only feel like the people that you are talking about i guess - confused? I have found that from the older days, many collectors were very educated in both blades and fittings. Many old high quality collections had many items with no certification other than sayagaki or hakogaki. I have told the NBTHK that they give people too much credit these days when they assume that the submitter understands the attribution that is sometimes given on a piece, but as far as I know when asked, they always are willing to explain the reason for the result. as the case here, a Fuchi Kashira unsigned attributred to Hikozo (Mumei Hikozo). Well usually the submitter will ask well which generation is it? According to the NBTHK style of Kiwame in Mumei pieces, this means that it is most likely the Shodai, possibly the Nidai. If they thought it was the Nidai exactly, they would put Mumei Hikozo Nidai in the kiwame area. But unless someone explains this, most beginners do not understand. that is why if I am at a show, and someone has a simple question about a paper from the NBTHK, I try to answer it for them, if it is complicated a bit (their question) then they can always contact the NBTHK directly.

There is not an incorrect or poor judgment, this is not a court. When someone submits an item to any shinsa, the submitter is freely asking them for their opinion on the piece. Most people submit an item to either verify it is what they think or hope, or fopr educational reasons trying to get an opinion from a set of people that are educated in this subject. I know many dealers in Japan that have an excellent "eye" that would have made excellent judges for a shinsa. In fact at the Dai Token Ichi they have such a service for a verbal opinion by the dealers from the zentosho with the best eye. I have learned that to be a top level dealer, one has to really know the information very very well, that is the difference in Japan between the top dealers and the lower ones. It never ceases to amaze me the amount of information that the high level sensei or dealers know about a certain artist. That is why even if i do not agree with their opinion at times, I still listen, and they are also willing to listen to mine as well. That is how I learn, all pride put aside.

I would say in the case of multiple submissions, it really depends upon the exact situation. Do you have a particular piece that you are talking about? Just saying item "x","y" or "z" is not enough. What was the piece, signed, unsigned, was it horyu? What was the quality and condition level? Many times if the item is in bad shape, it is difficult to kantei properly. The judges are not magicians. I would like to see anyone kantei a rusty blade that has few visible traits, or a tsuba with severe fire damage or rust....Give me an exact situation with proof - show me a pic from 2 papers and the time difference - also was the item in question submitted with any type of supporting material, or just "hope" As far as who was on the judging staff at the time, I know at times there are visiting judges from other museums used to fill in if there is a absence due to illness or some emergency, therefore allowing for a variation in judging results (this is just a possiblity).

I often go by the background of the shinsa judges, my teachers have been trained and taught by people like Homma sensei and Sato sensei, Sasano sensei and Fukushi sensei. Of course the panel has a group of judges, but I find it helps when there is a knowledgable judge that has a proven background on the team. For example, Tanobe sensei has an excellent "eye" as well as unparralled knowledge. Hagihara sensei was a direct student of Sasano sensei when Sasano sensei was in his prime, as well as with Fukushi sensei. Those credentials always humble my opinions, especially when I have an items that does not pass or turn out what I thought - but then that just adds to my knowledge. I do not know of many people in the states that can compete with their knowledge, and they are always ready to prove their reasoning, rather than the upset collector that says"anyone can see it is a real_____" so why didn't it pass.....thats what they should be asking or why the judgement was not the "hoped for" one. Like everyone knows , when it passes with flying colors, there is no sound of a complaint.

I have to ask, the NBSK has a shinsa? Also, to me it is fairly simple, if you are educated enough to make your own determinations with out papers, then please do so, if not and would like an educated opinion, then submit. Like I have said before, I buy many items without papers, and my own personal items amny do not have papers as I know what they are. But how many of you are willing to buy a high priced Nobuiye without papers or guarrantees? Or a Matashichi, or a Myojo? I bought this Yamakichibei without any papers for a very high price. So I think there is defintely a need for shinsa on tosogu, just at what level depends upon the client, and the item.

Here is a genuine NBTHK result form. This is what we get when the results are finalized from the NBTHK. This is a tosogu result sheet for myself. It shows 4 items that passed and the charge for the pass result is on the right (17,000 jpy equal to todays dollar rate of $170.85) If you ever send an item to Japan and for some reason there is a question, you can ask for this copy as proof of pass, horyu or fail. Brian if you feel that this subject is in any way inappropriate, you may delete this post. Mike

ok, lets return to the original theme....My idea is Tohachi, I probably will take this tsuba to Tampa, and it needs a bit of very light toweling, so I may work on it at the show. Everyones opinion is great, it is good that you all can throw out a guess. There are usually 3 main types of Kantei, what is it - Is the signature real - and/or how good is it. In this case as it is unsigned, what it is and how good is it apply. Its good everyone went to Higo, even Hayashi and Kamiyoshi as they are related. Yokan ji , gama hada, kin hishi zogan, all good things to know and learn. John, I was using your statement as an example because it seemed you knew enough of this piece to call it repatinated, rather than ask if the color was off and could this piece be repatinated.I find that this type of judgement to be impossible for a piece like this without seeing it in hand.

[attachment=0]kamiyoshi-fuku.jpg[/attachment]This one is probably Kamiyoshi fukunobu/rakuju. From the same collection as the hishi mimi hayashi, also no paper.

I believe that in all fairness, unless proven, comments like this should be worded differently. I see many strange comments on this site from those that have not seen the original item in hand. I agree discussion is educational, but there is a right way and the other way. I really don't care, my items are mine, and I know what i buy, but there have been some beginners that have gotten swatted in an unfair fashion. We need to promote new collectors, not discourage them with unproven opinions. The patina looks dark in the pic, what is the reason for this? did anyone think that there might be original urushi left on the piece? or how many people know what gama hada is on Hayashi pieces?

If you can tell if a tsuba is repatinated from nmb posted pics, rather than in hand, you are way better than I for tosogu kantei. My idea is Tohachi, it is a very good tsuba, and I guess someone did an excellent job of learning how to do gama hada.

[attachment=0]nmb-higo2.jpg[/attachment]I just bought this tsuba, up so you guys can study, not papered yet but I have my own ideas...The rim is fabulous, kin hishi style.

Owarai in the koshirae of Otsuki is all shunga. Every part. I may post it here later, but for sure on our facebook page. It is a fabulous mount with a hakogaki for teh blade and mount by Sato sensei stating it was the property of the Ikeda Daimyo.

Just list the basic info, no need for any additional input, keep it simple. Just state that this is just the fees for each groups shinsa that is listed, it does not include any additional expenses or costs. If there are any changes, have the appropriate people notify you.

I supplied the NBTHK info as I am a NBTHKAB board member. Ask Chris to supply his groups info, and kindly ask Tom Helm to supply the NTHK original groups info. That should suffice for now.

Yes that point is true, Even an all issaku mount made by Otsuki Mitsuoki done in Owarai theme that belonged to the Ikeda Daimyo would not get judged. The theme is considered a "no no".

Yup, just wanted to post the info about the fees, it wasn't meant to do anything else but state facts to the membership and make them aware of the actual prices for NBTHK. i think a permanent thread for all users that show all the prices and information about the groups for shinsa would be a benefit for members.