Henry Wilson

Again this is meant most respectfully. I generally think that Ford has made valid points and I can empathise with his frustration. The dialogue seems to be very closed at the moment and the really frustrating thing for me is the lack of any references that can help me explore the theories that Boris is presenting, which is what a valid closed discussion should have, in my opinion. I have started to look up old Japanese sources to try and flesh out Boris` reasoning. If I come across anything interesting I will share them here. The pic that has been recently attached to the above the post is a good starting point. Thank you Boris for providing it. The email and PM supporters that Boris mentions, I assume that they are reading this thread and if so, it would be very interesting to hear from them directly as they might put another dimension on the subject or a fresh outlook at the very least. At the minute it seems to be Boris fighting his corner with the usual members of the “mutual appreciation society” patting him on the back. I applaud Boris for his intrepidness and I invite other people who support him to speak up and help others understand.

Interesting John. Can I ask, what book is it? Cheers.

Hi John I think the last picture is of a tosoko and is not a sword. I think it is classed as a type of pen knife and is about 11cm long. It looks like a colour version of one I posted on page 2 of this thread.

Fantastic posts Ford. You have definitely given us all lots to think about. I hope the discussion can developed from here.

I think I have tried to do this in previous posts. I don't want to sound like a broken record but I want to know more about the northern influence which seems to be crucial in this discussion. I tried to get an impression of it myself, the results of which I posted above to support any conclusions I made.

I mean this most respectfully and this is not meant to sound mean or ill-intentioned or anything like that, but I find what Boris has written so far in this thread to be very ad hoc. What I mean is that a lot of it seems very "ground breaking" and subjective, which is fine if something new has been found. The problem is that I find a lot of it impossible to corroborate, and I can't just take someone's word for it. This would be much appreciated as I want to believe, but so far can't. Again no bad blood is intended.

You sure do! :thud: Take care and thanks!

LOL. Very funny. Sorry about the date mix-up. I was really confused as you can probably tell. By the way you look quite well in that picture Boris. The tarzan costume suits you. I'll take your post as a sign that your belief systems are not holding under the weight of close examination then...

A great guy to deal with.

Sorry for the late reply. Many thanks Boris for your thoughts. First of all, I got a Scythian date wrong. It should be 4 BC not 4 AD. The date that Boris lists seems off too. I think 1 million BC is a bit too early. (I think we had just master fire by then). Reference to this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_art The Scythian idea that was suggested by John, to me anyway, is not all that far fetched, if we keep an open mind. The Scythian are traced back to the Black Sea and the time of reference we are discussing is different, but the fact is they did occupy a different side of the same land mass as China. If you look at the map below, we can see that the Black Sea area is connected to the Silk Road by Istanbul. Also suggesting that similarities exist in Japanese representation of river reeds with those of middle-Kingdom Egypt is not that insane an idea too, if you consider that Alexandria was also on a Silk Road sea route. Because there were trade routes, we can not rule out the influence of the Silk Road so easily in my opinion, and it would be fair to say that artefacts produced anywhere along the Silk Road could have migrated towards China. If I look closely at the images below, between the items I can see what I can only describe as not being the same but having very clear similarities when the patterns of the flowers and foliage are all compared. This could be accidental, but on the other hand it is possible that it isn’t, and I think it is difficult to to say with confidence that there is no or very unlikely any continental influence. This seems to be the point that is holding the counter argument to the Silk Road theory together and reference is made to it continuously through this thread. To help with the discussion, I think it is necessary to have examples of this northern Japanese influence and artistry. For people interested in the background, check out this link: Asian Art Newspaper. I have searched for information on such a northern influence school, but at the moment can not find anything that can be described as northern influence around the Heian period that is not Emishi. (As far as Ezo style fittings go, I think any Emishi / Hokkaido influence has been ruled out). However, let us try to get a brief idea of what northern Japanese influence and artistry might be, even if it is hard to identify. Referring to Japanese Art by J. Stanley-Baker, the main art movement of the Heian period was the Fujiwara secular arts. Basically, under the Fujiwara, the arts started to move away from deliberate mimicking of Chinese models to a more “Japanese” style and this art movement is epitomized by the Byodo-in in Kyoto. However, even thought there was a distinct unique Japanese style, modern scholars have deduced from architecture, subdued colours in paintings and artistic form, diagonal alignments and birds-eye views seen in onna e that a lot of these seemingly Japanese traits can be traced back to Tang China, and the Buddhist paintings of that time. For the sake of this discussion, let us say that Kyoto was the base of the “Southern Fujiwara School” and Byodo-in was the centre of this movement. We can then say that Hiraizumi was the base for the “Northern School” and Chuson-ji was the centre of this movement. If we compare what we can find inside the Byodo-in and the golden Konjiki-do, we might be able to make a simple comparison of southern and the northern Fujiwara art. Referring to the pictures below, we can see that the buildings have a very similar profile. The way the eaves of the rooves lift, like a bird about to take flight is typical of Fujiwara architecture. Note, that the basic Chinese model is still evident but it has taken a new dimension. A comparison of the statues in the temples reveals in both temples a typical Fujiwara sculpting style. The area surrounding the deities are different. Chuson-ji seems more sumptuous. However they both have mother-of-pearl inlay, stylistically similar, as a common feature. Also the Konjiki-do has large phoenix (peacocks?) on the base which are similar to those found in Shoso-in. The mother-of-pearl inlay, a technique from Persia in the first place, is very similar to that seen on the Shoso-in items. From this brief and definitely over-simplified comparison, the north and south schools do not deviate that much. I am aware that it represents a very, very small sample, but it does give an indication. On the surface of the matter, there seems to be very strong constants that exist between both main temples, and no startling indication of a separate northern influence can be seen in my opinion, that can be used to reasonably say with any confidence that there was a special and unique kind of northern influence that is important in understanding how Ezo style fittings developed. I am not saying that such an influence does not exist, there just seems to be no concrete information that I am aware of to say that there is. If anyone has any information, please let me know. There seems to be very strong evidence that Silk Road influence was very predominate in the north. Apart from anything else, Silk Road items have been found in tombs around Chuson-ji when the Konjiki-do was being restored in 1962. This leads us back to the Shoso-in and how items there could have influenced the development of Ezo style fittings. I am not saying that I am correct, but I feel that under-estimating the significance of the Silk Road and what the Shoso-in can tell us is a great oversight in the study of Ezo style fittings. I hope this all makes sense and best regards.

Hi Junichi, Yes the direct connection is pretty abstract. It is the evolution of the one item that I find very interesting and how designs shifted. However, flicking through the books last night, the Iranian lid was one of the first things that caught my eye for some reason. It must be the shapes and to a lesser degree, the way the gold is worn, but I couldn't help thinking Ezo menuki when I first saw it.

I think the Scythians (Iranic equestrian tribes for readers who are not familiar with the term) could be the connected to the Iranian items found in the Shoso-in. I looked through some books in my library and I found some items that remind me of Ezo fittings. First of all, here are some pictures of Scythian gold art (7 BC to around 4 BC) from the Net compared with a Chinese 4th century painting and an Ezo style menuki. To me there are similar characteristics between the Scythian, Chinese and Japanese items. That is, the way the trees are depicted and the arrangement of the people are similar. I wonder if this could be an example of western artistic influence being absorbed in an easternly direction. More details on the Chinese painting is here. The Ezo style menuki at the bottom dates to Nambokucho to early Muromachi and makes an interesting comparison with the four other images, in particular how the plants and animals are arranged. The Shoso-in 正倉院 in Todai-ji in Nara consists of three storage houses built between 745 and 752 in which precious pieces of art and the then imperial collection was stored. Nara, being the final stop on the Silk Road, has a lot of items gathered from Persia, Tang China as well as domestically produced ones. Below is a composite picture of three items from Persia, stored in the Shoso-in that, in my opinion, have similar designs as seen on Ezo style fittings. The first item is a black lacquered jar that has isolated motifs of animals and plants. The next is of a textile of about 30 cm long depicted front and back (use unknown). The motifs here are the same animal and foliage theme from the jar, but they are more elaborate and finely done. Also depicted is symmetrical round clusters of foliage which is the bases of a lot of Ezo style fittings. The final picture of a box, especially the lid, takes these motifs a bit further. These items, being from Persia, likely depict popular and typical Persian designs from the time. Next is a composite picture that compares metal work found on Japanese koshirae to imported Chinese items to Ezo style tosogu. The koshirae below is Japanese but of a Chinese design, hence the name Kara Tachi 唐大刀 or Kara Yo Tachi 唐様大刀. The finger depressions on the tsuka of the tachi tsuka are not found on Tang tachi koshirae and indicates a Chinese style being internalized by the Japanese. (It also suggests functionality as opposed to just being a ceremonial sword, but that is another story). Similar lattice work, but less fine and sophisticated, is seen in an incense globe from the Shoso-in which is believed to be from Tang China. Comparing the Tang Chinese textile at the bottom of the picture with other similar motifs we can see how the Persian foliage design has developed. The circular pattern first seen above has become a lot more sophisticated but plants and vines are still arranged in a circular-shape clusters. Such lattice work, seen in the examples above, with prancing beasts is also seen in Ezo style fittings from the Nanbokuchuo period onwards. In the tosogu, foliage becomes weaved together to make a base for objects, such as inlayed stones or carved animated objects to rest on. Animated objects such as animals and mythical monster are depicted in a side profile in Ezo style art as well as in Persian and Tang art as the above and below examples show. Comparing a pattern on a saya of a tosoko 刀子 from the Shoso-in with that of Ezo style fittings, there are very clear similarities in how the plants are depicted as well as overall compositions from Persia, to China, to Japan. The climbing plant style and the shape of the flower heads can also be seen in the three Persian items above. This could be an example of Persian / Tang designs in fittings being internalized by the Japanese. Below illustrates the evolution of three similar drinking vessels found in the Shoso-in. This is especially interesting because it depicts generally the same thing done at different times by Persians, Tang Chinese and pre-Heian Japanese. The first one was made in Persia (マ一ド・イン・ペルシャ). The style of the embossed technique of people and plants, as well as the way the gold leaf has been worn away, reminds me of Ezo style fittings. The second one was made in China (度) and has the inclusion of vines and birds. Note the nanako ground the birds and vines rest on. The birds and vines seem to be inspired by Persian derived motifs. The third one was made in Japan (日本). Notice the simplicity of the design and the lack of pattern which the text itself points out. The refining of a design and general simplification of something seems to be a trait of Japanese art as it moves through time. And finally a comparison of a reproduction musical instrument from the Shoso-in compared with a Ezo fittings. They are very dissimilar but I find the overall artist composition and arrangement of design elements to be interesting and they seem to reflect similar sensibilities. I think the above comparison of items illustrates quite well the possible migration of styles from Persia to China to Japan, and how the styles have been refined and reworked. To me the pictures reinforce in my mind the notion that Ezo style designs are derived from Persian designs with Tang Chinese designs acting as a kind of bridge. The items also seem to indicate that the main point of entry of these designs to Japan was via the Silk Road. The notion of a northern entry is entirely possible, however considering that the Silk Road was the main route, it would be reasonable to assume that the main bulk of artistic stimuli came that way. Just my pennies worth and I hope it all makes sense. Best regards

This is becoming very interesting thank you all. The notion of "pure Japanese" kind of bothers me in this discussion. It suggests that art develops in a vacuum and that the Ezo style we are discussing has no derivative, which could be the case. What John says has enough weight that I think should be discussed, if only to let other readers see a different side of the topic. I find the Silk Road and its connection to the Yamato plain (Nara) very interesting. The Shoso-in, which dates back to 756, when Empress Komyo dedicated over 600 items to Todai-ji to express her love for her deceased husband, has lots of examples of items from India, Iran, Greece, Rome and Egypt as well as Chinese Tang items and domestically produced items that exonerate these regional styles. The mother-of-pearl inlay technique seen in Japanese lacquer work is found in the depository and is traced back to Persia. This technique seems to be the only thing that Japan absorbed directly from the Silk Road and all styles and designs from Persia disappear after a few generations. The beginning of the Heian Period (890 to 1185) coincides with the decline of the Tang dynasty staring from around 890s and at around this time the Heian court ended diplomatic missions to China starting a period of isolation. Beforehand the Japanese court in particular had been quite cosmopolitan and Japan had absorbed over centuries a mass of spiritual and visual stimuli from China, Korea, Central Asia, India, Europe and Arabia. Considering this, if Ezo style as Boris states is an example of north eastern Japanese art and regarded as pure Japanese, I feel that this unique artistic cultural indigenous identity must have come from somewhere, considering the volume of outside art and ideology that was warmly welcomed before. What I mean is that as examples, the Chinese produced ink landscape, the Japanese produced Yamato-e. Also the Heian Japanese mastered a calligraphic form of Japanese hiragana or the onade style. These arts are all identified as secular Fujiwara art, but the very basic roots to an outside source is hard to not notice. Could it not be possible that this phenomena could have happened to Ezo style fittings? That is, put very simplistically, an example of Persian designs, imitated over centuries, possibly disappears and emerges a few generations later and regarded as a pure Japanese art form. This would not change what Ezo fittings are but, as I understand it, could be an explanation for why the style is so distinct and seemingly comes from nowhere, or in other words pure Japanese. Sometimes I can’t help feeling that what is purely Japanese artistically is how the arts are responded to and the Japanese aesthetic values that have evolved over the centuries. The ideas of "mono no aware" and the like to me seem to be all that is really 100 percent Japanese. As other members have suggested or stated, I also feel that there is an outside influence to the Ezo style and I hope my post illustrates key points that make me think this.

Thank you very much Chris for pointing certain things out. One example that you mention, nashiji hada. The first time I came across this term in a sword book, I took a Japanese pear from the fruit basket and all became clear. What you are referring to is same for all such shops in any country I suppose. It is a reflection of the culture. I would call them cultural freeways as opposed to laboratories, but that is just me. Your post brings me back to something I posted a few days ago. How many members are able to read or talk their way around a conbini? Who would be able to ask for some fried chicken, never mind send an item by takyubin or talk to the staff? I suspect not that many. Not wanting to hijack this thread, have a look at my post at the end of this thread if interested: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17852&start=15 Anyway, cup noodles will never be the same again! And thanks Ford for the highly interesting info.

I sure would. Apart from the chance of finding a magazine on samurai culture or something along those lines, I can't think of anything i could have learnt about fittings and swords the last time I bought a nikuman.

I spent two very happy years of my life living in the North East of China in a small village called Longjing in the Yanbian Korean Autonomous region working for a British NGO charity, but while we are sounding off..... This touches on something that has been bothering me for a number of years. I am surprised at how some members are so sure of themselves that they feel they are qualified enough to challenge Japanese sources. No one knows for sure what went on say 500 years ago in the world of nihonto but I imagine that Japanese scholars (or people who have spent their lives studying in Japan under Japanese tutelage) would have more of an idea than the collector who can not speak Japanese and would have problems reading a simple menu in Japanese, never mind not having spent much time living in Japan. To me, the lack of Japanese who are willing to take part in online discussions says a lot and to me suggests that a lot of the Big Guns might not be so correct and might be best of keeping an open mind at times, and saving some good old fashioned face. It seems the bigger some get, the less willing they are to listen. We are all entitled to our opinions but sometimes I feel quite embarrassed for some members and how sure of themselves they sound.

This link might be interesting: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taira_clan

Something to do with this? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls

Happy New Year from all of us in Japan. Best of luck to all of you out there. It is that time of year for the on going 初 joke. (初 open the window, 初 walk up stairs etc..... I guess you need to be here )

The shape of the koshirae reminds me of early koshigatana, the pre-runner to uchigatana:

To me the overall composition, design and workmanship looks modern.

A nice koshirae. Well done. The red saya is very nice and the blue hue ito matches it well. It reminds me of a koshirae I saw last year that was a similar red, but had very nice ensuit iron fittings of dragons. The heavy rim tsuba and design is nice too. The lines might represent nothing in particular, however as a very long shot, what about a Japanese family kamon? Look at the one in the fourth line down. Just some food for thought.

Have you considered getting one custom made?　　The sageo on my Kasen koshirae is custom made but I forget the the name of the artist.

The motif is described as 枯木　or kareki which translates as withered tree. If this not enough for any skeptics, the inlay looks organic in style and reminds me of the type of brush strokes seen in sumie that depict trees in winter. Read all about it here: "On the Laws of Japanese Painting" by Henry P. Bowie http://www.gutenberg.org/files/35580/35 ... 580-h.html

Dear Mr Mishina Thank you for the message. I met Mr Iehiro Tokugawa and his wife a while ago and I fondly recall them both being very pleasant. The other people who you have indicated, I have never met and thank you for bringing their names and interesting information about them to my attention. I hope all is well with you and best regards.