chrisf

'Leap of faith' seems a bit of an understatement Brian,I agree with you that this looks a Meiji piece. The presence of a mon means that the owner claimed an affinity with that particular clan,it doesn't signify that it was the property of a daimyo or important persona. I think I'm right in saying that gimei Yoshimitsu tanto were commonplace,it was the designer label of tanto as Masamune was with katana,it didn't seem to matter that it was gimei,appearance was everything. I have always understood that court and samurai dress was highly codified,not sure this fits into that category. What is the date of the first Japanese reference to elephants?

I've just checked and there is an oshigata of your smith in the lists on 'Japanese Sword Index',a fantastic resource and full of information about WW2 ssmiths. Reading Showa mei is sometimes very difficult because of the 'chippy' nature of many of the signatures,it's a bit of a sweeping generalisation but better smiths have better mei,the very chippy ones are almost invariably gunto/Showato. The Index is great because if you don't have oshigata books you can check what you think it might be against the oshigata there.

There are oshigata of this smith in Fuller & Gregory's 'Oshigata Book' pages 121,122,123.

Thanks Peter,I did give myself a telling off for being dim and not checking Nagayama which as always provides a lucid description of what to look for. I totally agree about the nakago,even if o-suriage it shouldn't look like that,the hada reminds me of a Geishu Masamitsu that Peter Yorke showed me some years ago as a discussion piece with a similar grain. Whatever it is it wasn't cheap and a pretty speculative item.

Peter,would you care to elaborate on that?Not a trick question,just thought it might be helpful for Alex who originated the post and others (including me). I viewed it with suspicion taking into account; a) Size of kissaki. b) Hada,may be the polish but have only seen this flashy grain in shinshinto swords. c) Nakago,which looks a bit contrived. To a large degree I'm following my instincts because quite honestly I have almost no experience of swords of that supposed age,so a learning experience I hope.....

Agreed Mark,looks like Maegawa Kanetsugu to me,wartime Seki smith.

Watanabe Yoshisaburo known as Yoshitake,licence received 25th March Showa 16 (1941). Not much I'm afraid but it's difficult to find information unless they are well known and recorded smiths as many only worked as swordsmiths for the duration of the war.

Alex,would you be kind enough to PM me details of your dealer contact unless you wish to keep it to yourself which is equally OK.Many thanks.

Might be off-topic but an interesting reference to Yoshichika swords is that Hakudo Nakayama tested swords for the Imperial Guard and had a Minamoto Yoshichika blade himself which I believe was sold at auction(?)some years ago. He demonstrated the cutting efficiency by holding the blade by the bare tang and cut through the hips of a dead pig which so impressed that allother swords were withdrawn and only Yoshichika blades were to be carried by the Imperial Guard. I have owned a Yoshichika and seen and handled several others and a high percentage seem to suffer from chipping and have often wondered if this was a result of using Western steel or a different hardness factor which produced a very sharp but slightly brittle edge?

Hi Donny,is there a school of kenjutsu in particular that you study and what sword do you use?The old sword books sound interesting but I was thinking more in terms of modern reference books like Nagayama Kokan 'Connoisseurs book of Japanese swords' which is superb and packed with information for collectors at all levels. I think you missed the point a bit in discussing your possible wakizashi,there seems to be agreement that it is not a fake as such,in that it was not made to deliberately deceive like modern fakes encountered on ebay but probably a locally made,wartime copy of a Japanese sword. Also,the blade has poor sugata,it is not a good shape and neither is the kissaki which is either badly formed or reshaped,the fukura properly should be parallel to the ko-shinogi,if you don't have a book with the terms to describe a blade I'm sure that you will find it on the www.

Nip out for a bottle of absinthe and get Edith Piaf on the turntable Jean,that'll cheer you up!

Thanks Chris.

Thank you Chris,on reading this by a number of smiths in Ron's books I assumed that forges had been set up in Technical Schools in locations all over Japan and these smiths were operating in both a teaching capacity with apprentices and demonstrating sword forging as part of the war effort much as existed at Ritsumeikan but I can see that your explanation is probably more likely,thank you again.

From your images it's almost impossible to say if it's a gendaito or arsenal made gunto,I'm fairly sure that I've seen this signature on gunto,it's completely different to the gendai smith who worked in the Yoshichika Ke in Tokyo who used different strokes and signed 'Toto ju nin Yoshiharu'. Hawley has a Yoshiharu YOS1407 postwar and working in Tottori with the usual 8 value and I think that's where Ron sourced a lot of his information. My initial feeling is that your sword is a gunto but it's a terrific group of items along with provenance. A whittled down chopstick will make a good mekugi (peg),DON'T use screws or bolts and if you oil the blade with a very light oil,wipe off the surplus before resheathing with toilet tissue,excess oil will soak into the wooden scabbard liners. 'Dean of National Technical School' and similar titles,does anyone know if they actually signified a position or just an honorary title? CAB maybe?

Donny,I admire your enthusiasm,you remind me of myself when I set out on the path of trying to learn about Japanese swords and seem to be as keen as mustard. I read Dobree,B W Robinson and John Yumoto from cover to cover,I tried to add a little to my knowledge every day and handled as many REAL swords as I could. Are you able to see and handle Japanese swords on a regular basis and do you have reference books? It's great to be enthusiastic but I fear that you try to read too much into what you are seeing and your enthusiasm overwhelms the logic and evidence of what's in front of you. I would be amazed if your 'wakizashi' proved to be anything other than a locally made copy. I remember the first 'signed' katana that I bought,I was SO excited and sat with my books every night for a week to translate it.'Noshu ju Masayuki saku',it was a Showato and I had fondly imagined it to be a koto masterpiece.Moral?Study,look at swords and try to look at the evidence rather than want it to be something it's not.Good luck and don't give up!

The point I intended to make using Rooney as a reference was that values and perspectives have changed so much that it's no surprise than highly skilled artisans who have dedicated a lifetime to their crafts are struggling. For those who don't know him,Wayne Rooney plays football for Manchester United and is an arrogant,foul mouthed,ignorant lout.In October last year he negotiated a new pay deal reckoned to be £250,000 PER WEEK How many swords would Kenji Mishina have to polish to earn that? Even more to the point how long would a nurse or teacher have to work for that amount? Sorry if it seems 'off topic' but it seems that fewer people are interested in appreciating culture,art and history andare satisfied with MacD,Sky sports and tv soaps.

Chris,when you have a society that values Wayne Rooney more highly than a nurse or teacher then you know you're in trouble.

Thanks for that insight Chris,surely the Japanese government would take steps to protect and preserve the craft of the sword and associated arts,I have always admired the fact that they make an effort to safeguard their heritage,the concept of Ningen Kokuho (hope that's correct) is something that every country should embrace,we had superb craftsmen working in the gun trade in Birmingham and cutlers in Sheffield and I don't think there's much left of either now.

Thanks Chris,as always interesting points to take on board and the appearance of gimei gendaito is worth bearing in mind given the prices that top smiths are realising. I'm interested to hear about the struggles of shinsakuto,is this because of the downturn in the Japanese economy,the law on sword production or do you think that they became overpriced when the Japanese economy boomed and people invested huge amounts in 'art' and it was a sellers market?

Chris,do you think it worthwhile to have a sword like the one under discussion papered?Will the owner know any more about his sword than he does now and what 'added value' do papers give in your opinion? From my own perspective if I was offered this and told it was papered I'd say 'So what?',I can see exactly what it is without having to have a piece of paper to tell me and that applies to a lot of swords that I see in the commercial marketplace which are not exceptional,not particularly rare but are made to seem more important because they have a paper. No disrespect is intended here towards those organisations that provide shinsa teams whose depth of knowledge and wealth of experience is way beyond anything I might aspire to but quite honestly unless the sword is exceptional I just don't see the point.

What could have been a 'mine's bigger than yours' exchange has proved to be interesting and enlightening with some of the opening salvoes fired by (in my opinion) highly respected figures in the field who have made major contributions to furthering our knowledge of the Japanese sword. I will not bore you with my collecting history as I do not 'collect' as such,I buy swords,study them,learn as much as I can then sell and move on. Thanks to Ron Gregory,like CAB,I learned that there were good swords made in WW2 that could be bought far more reasonably than 'antique samurai swords' and I have tried to focus more in that area than any other (current jewel is a 1942 Kuniiye made at Nihonso,best I've seen,in stunning polish.) CAB,keep going with the book,your Tokyo Kindai Tosho notes have been invaluable and would love to see the finished product. Thanks also to Clive Sinclaire for all his efforts,especially helping to bring Mishina sensei to the UK,his lecture was an unforgettable experience.

Also working in Aichi and with same family name MANO MASAYASU whose swords bear a number of similarities,style of mei,yasurimei and hamon and I think I read somewhere (could be wrong) that it was thought that there were two generations. Also on many Masayasu nakago there is a small stamp like a small crescent moon,maybe to indicate daimei or shoshinmei? I have owned a couple of swords by Masayasu and handled two or three more and all looked to be well forged and had hamon based on suguha but with lots of activities like nijuba and uchinoke (all clearly visible in the 2nd I owned which was in almost mint original polish). Hope this helps a bit.

Donny,the kai gunto you show is readily identifiable as fake for several reasons and is very different to the sword under discussion. Also consider this;WHY would someone bother to make such an inferior quality gunto AS A COPY? Fakes are made for commercial purposes so what would be the point of spending time making a crap copy when you could make a good one with the same effort? The tsuka of this sword looks genuine,the fittings are typical of very late war manufacture and the blade has old patina on the nakago not fake patination,evidence of a hamon and a kissaki that is also fairly typical of low quality Showa gunto. In any event the issue is settled and it has been unanimously agreed upon that this is not a quality,traditionally made nihonto.

Donny,look again at the picture of the menuki and what is behind....just because same didn't appear in one photo it's wrong to conclude that there is NO same on this tsuka.Frequently on late war gunto and lower end antique swords you'll see same in bits and pieces applied to the tsuka rather than two strips or a full same wrap.Because these strips/bits of same are not great quality they become brittle and are easily broken and dislodged and gaps appear beneath the ito. The fittings are typically late war and are probably not solid brass,while the metal looks like brass I think it may be some sort of amalgam that could be used instead of brass which was required for shell and cartridge cases. Finally,I have actually owned swords like this not just compared photos found online or in books.

Keith,I wondered exactly the same but was unsure of the protocols of commenting on prospective ebay purchases so refrained from doing so but would willingly add my voice to yours and others to ask Tobias to carefully think this through for precisely the reasons you mentioned. I can understand what some of the appeal is,it's signed,polished and has papers,all the things that new collectors are taught to look for. My view is that it's an unremarkable wakizashi with forging flaws,in flashy new polish which often conceals more than it reveals and 'papers' that have no real bearing on the value. I have looked at European sword sites and they do seem expensive compared to US and UK prices but time spent looking through the 'LINKS' might well pay off. If you wish to buy within the EU Tobias,there are a number of dealers in the UK who have decent stuff,they may not appear in NMB links but can be found by internet search.