Brian

Here's a different look. Not sure if it will help at all. Brian

Danny has a brilliant article: http://www.nihontocraft.com/Mishina.html I couldn't make out that kami properly, but it seems to be Kyoto branch to me. What confuses me is that on this page: http://www.ricecracker.com/info/yoshimichi.htm they say "Only the Kyoto Tanba uses the Kiku on the nakago" and here: http://www.juwelier-strebel.de/Asien/Japan/Katana.htm they say "The Osaka branch signed almost identical, but without the Kiku." But Osaka 1st gen is listed with the kiku mon in Danny's article?? No wonder us novices get confused :? The tachi mei is unusual, so I will still go with my flyer and say there is a mei on the ura and the omote. Or not.... hehe. Brian Edit to add: I now believe this is Kyoto branch from the blown up pic, fwiw. The query above is no longer relevant then, but still confusing if you are researching Osaka Yoshimichi with a kiku?

Jock, If the mei is shoshin (no idea) and the cutting test is genuine, then I guess some would want it as an example and a study piece. You can still see everything the sword has to show, just it is not a functional item anymore. I guess if you have the money, it is a neat discussion piece. But what it is worth depends on how much extra cash you have lying around :lol: Brian

Sebastian.. Just curious. These tsuba you have are quite nice pieces, and I am sure they are not cheap. So how do you spend a few $100 or more and not know what the signature says before you buy them? I would think if I was spending $600 or $1000 or whatever, I would want to know what signature is on it first? Just wondering Brian

It has 2 hagire. No-one here is going to recommend a sword with fatal flaws unless it is really cheap and you are going to use it to study something. But at over $1000..do you want a fatally flawed blade with no real resale possibilities? Brian

(Where is the smiley for Doh!) I missed that. Good lesson on how to look at everything. Hmm..more research needed. taking a stab in the dark...I wonder if this could be signed by father and son, with Yamato no Kami Yoshimichi on the other side? (Edit to add.. I think the 1st generation (1644) Osaka Yoshimichi signed with a kiku, and I wonder if this could be a collaboration with one of him sons, Yamato no kami Yoshimichi?) Brian

To avoid futher confusion, I think what people are saying here is that this is a copy. Paul Chen or otherwise. However I don't see nearly enough to confidently make that assumption (or deny it) I think all we can do is wait for it to arrive, and then you post better pics Jock. If it is a copy, then you will have a good case against the seller. However I would rather see more pics before deciding that. Usually copies are much more obvious and we don't have to go into the look of the steel etc to identify them. But there are production grade copies that are getting better all the time, made for sport usually such as Chen etc. All we can do now is wait and see what arrives. Brian

Well..the "kami" kanji and the kiku-mon show it is the Kyoto branch of the Yoshimichi line. Second generation onwards? I would have to go with 2nd, 3rd or 4th. But need to research more before I can take a stab at which one Brian Edit to add..can we see a closer pic of the kami kanji? Can't really see if it is the Osaka or Kyoto style, and am second guessing myself)

I looked earlier, and despite not having seen sudareba in hand before, and working only from what I have seen in books, pics on the net and theoretical diagrams, it also made me think of sudareba immediately. Not quite sure if that is the typical Mishina boshi? But with what looks like textbook sudareba and hataraki rising almost to the shinogi, I would have to go with Mishina ha, and one of the Yoshimichi lineage. Tanba no Kami Yoshimichi, second generation? Brian

Barry, Sorry if it came across as a correction, I am not even sure if that is indeed the old saying..just seem to remember it somewhere. I was just emphasising how the old humour confirmed the amount of gimei Kotetsu blades out there. Does anyone know the wording of the old saying? Brian

Barry, I could be totally mistaken, but wasn't that saying "out of every 10 Kotetsu you come across, 11 of them are gimei?" :D :lol: Brian

That sounds like the wisdom of someone who spent too many hours in the bars in Thailand! :D :lol: Would be nice to see it after a decent polish that tones it down, but a lot of money to then have to remove a mei, and submit for shinsa. If it came back as a good name though, then might be worth repolishing. I'm not the type to gamble with that much money though Brian

Jock, No harm done, but I think that sometimes it isn't clear if the question is from a potential buyer, a seller or someone that owns the item. Too many times someone will register here, ask for a translation and then use it in a listing and we never hear from them again. Hence the reason why I wrote some guidelines above the translation section. I don't mind people asking, as long as the helpful members don't mind answering. But sometimes it might just prevent confusion by saying "this is a sword I am considering purchasing" or "this is one I own" etc. You don't have to post a link, as I know some don't want to alert everyone to their "bargain" but knowing it is up for sale helps us when we ask for better pics or info. Then we know you don't have it in hand, and getting extra pics won't be fast. It also allays any fears that the translation is going to be used for a listing. Just streamlines everything. I hope people will also start having a go at the kanji themselves as you did now, as this encourages learning and not just taking the easy way out. Brian PS - When you get it, post a closer and better pic of the mei so we can work out the confusing kanji.

Moriyama san, Do you think that it is the webpage that has it described incorrectly, or the book? Hawley's Mon book definitely has that listed as kashiwa, but not sure if he had it incorrect. This page: http://www.geocities.com/kazenaga23/crests.htm has the kashiwa with 3 leaves, but if you follow the Abe link, on page 3 it has this mon along with Matsuura Brian

Ken, Please sign posts with a name please (and since we have a Ken, maybe an initial too? :D ) Before anyone else asks, how about a pic of the fuchi? It is much easier taking a stab at it with the item in view. During later times, the mon represented don't always lead immediately to a family attribution. Sometimes they were used for the vaguest of reasons, and since they were frequently parted out from the swords, what you can assertain from the mon is maybe very limited. Also, the owner could have been a simple merchant. There is nothing to say that there is a link to any class of owner, especially during the later Edo period when many of these were made. By 1751, books of mon designs were published that made it possible for anyone to select a mon for their own use. Let's see the image and hopefully someone has some input. Regards, Brian Ps- I have this as the white oak (Kashiwa) mon, and it is listed as Abe and Daimyo Okabe in Musashi province in my book.

I am not convinced of that, but possibly? I'll leave him to answer that. He was maybe checking the translation, or looking for more info on the maker? Too many of us browsing eBay for fun to let items slip past unnoticed. We have seen that happen many, many times here. Brian

Jock, If you are just posting every mei that you are interested in buying, then at least tell us, or put it in the eBay section with an explanation. http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-Sword-Sign ... 0215779577 Brian

Stephen, Dotanuki was a Higo school of swordmakers. http://www.touken.or.jp/english/nihon_koto_shi/(52)%20No.613.htm has some info. According to: http://www.touken.or.jp/english/nihon_koto_shi/(44)%20No.599.htm "Generally speaking, the Kanabo, the Shitahara and the Dotanuki schools made very practical swords but their artistic value is not so highly estimated." When speaking of the shodai Tadayoshi, they say: Quite a bit of other info on this school on Google. Sounds like Bungo school..practicality over art :D Brian

Yep..I was hoping for some pics that aren't at such an angle. I think a few of those strokes might look a bit different if face-on. X Shige it is, not convinced on that first kanji yet though. Jock..well done on trying, and getting that second kanji. Practice makes perfect. As Stephen said, when you get 2 readings, it is just 2 different pronounciations. Experience will tell you which sounds right. Brian

Pete, You are 100% correct. The old excuse used to be that the books were in Japanese and people who didn't read any Japanese at all couldn't even look up the smith....but with there being a full English translation of many of these nowdays (including the Kinko Meikan) these reasons have fallen away. Brian

Because traditionally swords are displayed the way they are carried. In this care, tachi are carried edge down, and hence why they are displayed this way. I was just concerned about standing them on edge, but tradition overrules all else. Also, the nagako of a sword at rest usually is on the left, to show no bad intentions to grab it for use with the right hand. Brian

Jock, Try a full photo of the mei instead of this angled one. Makes it harder to see clearly. Also..why don't you have a go at it and at least have a try. http://www.nihontokanjipages.com/kanji_for_mei.html Shouldn't be too difficult. Brian

Please sign posts with at least a first name. I believe this one is Kunimitsu, although I haven't looked yet to see which one it is. Brian

I believe the question was whether or not this was a genuine tanto or not. I think most of us agree it is not a fake, just a bad quality horimono. There are plenty out there, and it is interesting to speculate on how it got there. Not everything has to be about whether you would buy it as a top example or not. Sometimes we just wonder about things. I have seen badly cut bonji on a good blade to hide flaws. Sometimes the blade isn't a bad one at all..just the later addition of an amateur carving. I would hate for us to get into the mindset that only the top stuff is worth collecting and low to mid level stuff is junk not worthy of anyone's interest. That would mean that 95% of the entire art world is wrong, whether it be a painting or a sword. Right or wrong...discuss Brian

Why on earth did you use such a complicated and intricate forum software? Who uses phpBB? :D :lol: Seriously though, it's a great forum with a lot to teach, especially about our own subject matter. Very interesting to learn more about the how and why these techniques are applied. A great vibe there too, with some interesting characters. Worth a regular visit. Brian