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Love the discussion, although I’m not very confident that we can eventually arrive at a solid understanding of tsuba attribution to a specific school. So, let’s get back to the details, which may become clearer as our thinking progresses. Let’s try to move from naturalistic to more abstract representations of wild geese: Now it’s quite clear how the more abstract pattern is oriented.

Chris wrote excellent post and information like that will take some time to process. It is actually quite complicated stuff. I was giving an introductory into Japanese swords during the weekend, and I briefly mentioned about the difficulties in looking at prices as there can be so much variation that is very hard to understand. This does happen at all levels, not just at high end. Sometimes it can be really difficult to say why one sword is listed at 500,000 yen and another one for 700,000 yen. I was about to dig up some reference example where the same seller has listed blades from the same school at various price points. As a fun fact I have recorded Aoi Art selling 46 different mumei Ko-Mihara blades. Here are 3 blades from my cherished northern Hōju school that all have been listed at Eirakudo and all papered as Tokubetsu Hozon by NBTHK, and all are in shirasaya so koshirae does not complicate things. As a fun fact N. 1 & 3 have also been at other dealers at different price point. 1: Tachi 78,1 cm : 2,000,000 yen : https://eirakudo.shop/token/wakizashi/detail/368087 2: Katana 79,1 cm : 2,600,000 yen : https://eirakudo.shop/806442 3: Katana 72,8 cm : 1,300,000 yen : https://eirakudo.shop/099872 If all items were equally priced I would pick them in order 3,2,1. I do like the number 3 most because of the strong shape. It has the strong Nanbokuchō profile that I like. I think the description for this one is good and there are of course some rougher areas on the blade that don't look that nice. There is one bit nasty delamination in kissaki that pop ups a bit, I could live with stuff like that but for many it might be annoying. Number 3 has also appeared on Samurai Museum for roughly 1,800,000 yen https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/product/antique-Japanese-sword-katana-unsigned-hojyu-nbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-certificate-2/ and at Winners for price unknown to me https://www.winners-auction.jp/productDetail/99960 2 is the most expensive one and one that I have not yet seen anywhere else, it is recent 2025 Tokubetsu Hozon. This one has long length of 79,1 cm and in the sales ad it is mentioned this is ō-suriage. Long supposedly ō-suriage blades like this are always making my brain hurt. As then this would be an ōdachi originally and to me this does not really have the general vibe that ōdachi have. This is quite narrow sword in profile with little curvature. I know there is a hole at the bottom of the nakago but in my mind I see the middle most likely area for the original hole, so I would just see this as suriage sword and not ō-suriage. I would see this being bit similar to sword number one and both being late Kamakura period tachi originally. I am just comparing because I do have plenty of reference Hōju tachi that are in 80 to 88 cm range. I could very well see this being bit over 80 cm originally but struggle to see something like 95 cm. This does seem to have best polish of the bunch and most details are visible compared to other 2. To my eye sword also seems to be of the best quality out of all 3, the forging seems much finer than on other two. Even though you can see the pattern well it is still well made. I know Hōju often gets touted off as rough looking but Tokyo National Museum has Hōju tachi that has very fine forging. Number 1 is a decent tachi. I just can't personally see it desirable at this price point. Of course I have looked at Hōju tachi for probably over 10 years now and seen many nice ones pop up to market and going usually rather fast. I don't agree with the age estimate that is written on shirasaya and what sword shop also states 元暦 (Genryaku was 1184-85). I don't think this is late Heian - early Kamakura sword. In my opinion this is rather late Kamakura - early Nanbokuchō sword. I know that Hōju swords get often touted as really early ones, however as I have done research on them I believe there are only extremely few of the that actually date to early Kamakura. The one that I believe would be the perhaps the oldest one is the Jūyō Bunkazai tachi of Seikadō Bunko Art Museum (unfortunately haven't seen that one in person yet). The majority of Hōju school works are from late Kamakura period to early Muromachi period. I do think in the pictures this looks "hazy" and bit difficult to see the details. This tachi was later at Aoi Art and was listed for 1,200,000 yen https://www.aoijapan.com/tachi-mumei-attributed-to-hoju-nbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-token/ unfortunately Aoi now removes their listings (I can totally understand why they do it but it is too bad for saving information). Even though this is ubu tachi and in general I cherish original size, I just can't see myself liking this sword a lot. Now this is just a one opinion and other people might feel totally different and that is the fun part of the hobby. We don't need to like the same stuff. I think number 2 is the best item out of the bunch, number 1 closest to original, number 3 is the lowest in quality but to me best in form.

Looking for auspices ("auspices" means "looking at birds") in tosogu is almost as varied as it is in nature. Birds may fly centripetally, centrifugally, or in circles (sometimes in the same direction, or occasionally in opposite directions). A brief treatise on “Tsuba Augury”:

Is it this guy (only one listed by Sesko) "TADATSUNA (忠綱), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Tottori – “Hōki Ōhara Tadatsuna” (伯耆大原忠綱), “Tadatsuna” (忠綱), real name Ōhara Chūjirō (大原忠次郎), born March 20th 1902, he studied from about 1935 under Moriwaki Masataka (森脇正孝) (see picture right)"

Another late war, unlisted RJT smith - Izumo jū Tadatsuna saku - 出雲住忠綱作, May 1945, found on ebay. Sesko has one, from Tottori, which is a very small prefecture right next to Shimane (Izumo), so might be the guy.

Hello everyone, my name is Faustus. I’ve been reading the board for a while and thought it’s time to join. I’m based in Germany and still relatively new to collecting, although I’ve already picked up some smaller pieces along the way. I’ve been fascinated by Japanese culture since I was a child, but what really got me into Nihonto was my first trip to Japan in the middle of last year — that’s where it sort of clicked and I started looking into it more seriously. Since then I’ve been trying to learn step by step, looking at different aspects of Nihonto collecting. At the moment I’m waiting to receive my first katana from Japan and I’m really looking forward to studying it in detail. At the same time, I’m starting to get into topics like lighting setup, sword care, storage, and presentation. I really appreciate the amount of knowledge shared here and I’m looking forward to learning more. Best regards, Faustus

Oh and back to schools issue...pertaining to these specific tsuba. There was a significant amount of overlap and cross-pollination, including direct contact between smiths among the Akasaka, Tosa Myochin and a strong stylistic pull for both of those groups toward the Higo Kanshiro, so it's no wonder all these tsuba have very similar characteristics, but are getting all these different labels. Even some late Edo period Tosa smiths were known to work in an earlier ko-Akasaka style (but usually with their own twist, rather than just doing rote utsushi copies). There's a really interesting and informative article that describes the detailed nature of this stylistic "entanglement": A Story of the Tosa - Myôchin 土佐 明珍 By Mark Ceskavich JSSUS Newsletter Volume 50, no.3, 2018

Mauro, your sentiment basically captures one of the principal driving forces in posting this thread in the first place. It's a thought that can't be ignored the more you go down the rabbit hole of trying to sort out the mess of attributions and sometimes outlandish papers that exist (yes, even the new ones... not just the old green ones). Another point that really needs consideration is that the classification system itself is inadequate when it comes to assigning attributions. That's exactly why attributions seems to be subject to whims and fads and "cultism" of sorts. As the system stands at the moment, it's far far away from being a "science". It's only by gathering more evidence and really gathering up a strong database that we'll be able to do enough comparative analysis to really break things down into proper groupings and many more "sub-groupings" than currently exist. Some of these sub-groupings may never get a genuine name to hang on them, but I genuinely feel that could slowly tease out some more specific attributions that could even point to a specific smith's work (regardless of whether they fall under a larger category's umbrella or just shows an "influence" from one or more groups). But hopefully we can put together enough visual resources to point to see to say, "yup this is one of that guy's pieces". One day... but I sincerely hope we can all start slowly chipping away at it, one grouping at a time.

Another fatty and one of my favorites! Tom

Thank you both - greatly appreciated. The box came with the attached Jingo Oxen design tsuba made by the 5th Jingo ( from comparison with two other signed published examples ) Kindest regards Michael

Izumo jū Tadatsuna saku - 出雲住忠綱作

Sesko Markus, Signatures of Japanese Sword Fittings Artists, Lulu Inc., 2014, eBook. 680 pages. Possibly the best buy in my nihontō-related library — highly recommended.

Birds in sukashi tsuba must help provide strength to the construction, but surrounded by air, still be recognizable as birds (in flight). When there are numbers of them, as we observe them in the sky, first impressions will be important, especially so for the artisan since each has to be carved/cut out, in balance/harmony with the others depicted. Certain birds had symbolic meanings, so certain features may have been tokenly emphasized, but rarely in any sense accurate to nature. Each artisan may have had a quick formula, and then we find a lot of artistic crossover over the centuries, so pinning exact species down will be a rabbit warren. Bird representations can range from the general, as children draw them, to the exquisitely detailed as in Jean's geese above. Even so, the quick formula 'bird in flight' shape may be key to finding a particular tsuba artist within a 'school'. Kyoto Daigoro?

I tend to agree with Robert. Hoshi also brings the nuance into light. When I was at Seiyudo last month they let me take out literally every sword in the store to inspect it. I was there picking up two fairly pricey swords so I think that’s why they invited me to do so. Anyway, they have a Ryokai there that is not listed on the site that they are planning to submit to Juyo and I want to say they told me it was currently around $60k. I asked them if the Juyo paper would increase the price they would sell it for and they said maybe, maybe not. I guess they were implying they would test the market at that time. Like Hoshi said, the paper just allows the market to potentially drive the price up since it’s gone through another level of scrutiny. All that being said, yeah some of these swords are just priced in already. Also what Julien said, two swords could be separated by a slight degree during judging and one wins out over the other. The sword might be important but this other one is more important at the moment. The owner or dealer doesn’t want to go through time and effort again etc. Doesn’t mean it isn’t Juyo, just means it hasn’t been granted it yet, and they just price it at Juyo. But smith name also doesn’t guarantee Juyo. Maybe it never will go. Just because it’s a Shintogo doesn’t mean it’s “important” to NBTHK in an absolute sense.

The only vaguely standardised Kyu Gunto would be the arsenal blades, though even those had variations between makers and could be customised for length.

Sorry, I do not have this Book, because swords are only a small part of my interest which is mainly in uniforms and equipment of the Taisho era. I hadn't expected to get a Meiji-era hilt, as I was actually focused on the other sword—and I had to buy the rest as well: it was all or nothing... And I hope I don't now have to start collecting Meiji uniforms too ...and the questionable scabbard with handle is displayed now together with a Taisho uniform. You do not see very much of them. This also overcomes the problem of finding a suitable blade that fits into the scabbard – provided the scabbard is original....

https://www.jauce.com/auction/s1224988813 a close look at the left hitsu and you get another "cat face" - a bit chubbier maybe we can classify a whole new style of hitsu by the type of feline species? Perhaps Dobby wearing some cat ears on the right? And yes there is a cat called "Dobby" he has FOUR ears -

Damn i dont read it correct. Tadatsuna.

There were actually a lot more smiths with titles during that time period. As I said it is outside of my interest so I cannot dig up the date when each got the title as some are very minor smiths with very little info on them. Now out of these I would see Masayuki, Motohira, Tadayoshi, Suketaka and Masashige as the famous ones. Toshinori - 1785 Yoshimori - 1786 Masayuki - 1789 Motohira - 1789 Tadayoshi - 1790 Hirotaka - 1796 Suketaka - 1798 Kinmichi - 1800 Yoshimichi - 1802 Masashige - 1803 Kiyohiro - ? Kunifusa - ? Kunihide - ? Kunishige - ? Kunitora - ? Masahisa - ? Masanori - ? Munemichi - ? Nagayoshi - ? Shigehide - ? Sukekane - ? Tadakuni - ? Tsuguhira - ?

Wonderful, thanks Ray!

Jens, The sword in the first photo is a Type 8, not a Type 19. That’s why the guard and handle backstrap are devoid of the floral motifs. Do you have a copy of Swords of Imperial Japan 1868-1945 Cyclopedia Edition by Jim Dawson? This book would be your best guide to identifying Meiji period Japanese military swords.

Back to direction of the wings... ughhh I give up LOL Sometimes they appear to have their wings arcing forward, especially when they seem to be taking a power stroke to get going: But then most of time they appear to have their wings arced backward, especially when they seem to be coasting/gliding: And there is also viewing angle and perspective to factor into it, which could alter the viewer's perception... so, um

Well, now that you've brought the chidori/karigane issue into question, it's seems like an interesting question that I personally had never considered in this way before. I just always assumed the arc of the wings was the only factor that I ever considered in terms of "flight direction". But maybe your naturalistic goose tsuba might suggest the possibility of a forward facing arc for the wings of geese in flight? Also the head and body of some of these tsuba are relative short and stumpy while on others they are longer and more tapered. Is it just differences in craftmanship or actually supposed to be a different kind of bird? By the way, you weren't the only one to think "chidori" because some of the attributions I posted above did mention chidori rather than geese. I just outright discounted those statements as false and went with my gut that was telling me "geese".

Stanila (is that your first name?), SHODO is a general term for the art of writing (calligraphy), but this looks indeed like a hot stamp in grass script (SOSHO). Most swords have a YOKOTE when they are executed as SHINOGI-ZUKURI. In fact, all military blades are made this way. Your sword's NAKAGO looks brand-new, so likely not Japanese? Some good pictures would help!

Thank you Mauro, I did not formulate my question properly. When KARIGANE are depicted as small symbols, where is their head and where is their tail, respectively? I am afraid I got this wrong in my interpretation, probably the longer body part is the head/neck? In a more naturalistic depiction, it is easy, like on this one below:

The shop name is 都幾川美術 - Tokigawa art.

The mei bun - jidai column gives it to den Jumyo from around Kanbun.

Well maybe a Cheshire cat amongst the karigane!

This is from the Birmingham Museum which I photographed quite a few years ago so I can't really comment

An "Owari" you might notice the birds are inverted - pointing towards the seppa-dai rather than the mimi. https://www.choshuya.co.jp/senrigan/抱茗荷雁金透鍔（鐔）　無銘　尾張/鍔/尾張 Afew in this older thread https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/44479-wild-geese-in-the-clouds/

Ok, I suppose there aren't any more people willing to offer a hypothesis, or everyone else is somewhat in agreement with what has already been stated, or just don't know... #1 Apparently made by Higo's Hayashi Matashichi (It's published in the Gustav Jacoby Collection... and if I am reading this google translation correctly, it was once in the possession of the Hosokawa and Nishigaki lineages up until the late 19th century. #2 NBTHK papers to ko-Akasaka (lacking in any sort of useful detail, as usual...) Google translation: No. 4015180 Certificate of authenticity 1. Tsuba (sword guard) with openwork design of ginger and wild goose motifs, unsigned, Old Akasaka. Chrysanthemum-shaped iron base with openwork, rounded rim. The item on the right has been authenticated as a preserved sword fitting by our association as a result of our examination, and this is certified. May 28, 2019 Japanese Art Sword Preservation Association #3 Nishigaki Kanshiro (according to a hakogaki by Sasano. This one is posted on tsuba.info and is listed as 2nd generation Kanshiro in the section on Higo tsuba. I was given the info through messaging with the owner of the tsuba, but I don't have any images to post of the hakogaki. I was also informed that this one has some signs of slight layer separation, opening the door to a possible Akasaka connection And just to muddy the waters.. here's yet another, actually closest to # 2 in that it has the larger proportioned hitsu-ana. #4 It's in the Owari section of Tsuba Shusei (the elephant book), and it describes it as: 65. Myoga and Chidori – A tsuba with a nice texture in a central recess. In an older style. Seppa-dai 3mm, kakumiri 6mm. And just to blur things even more... here's one from illustrations of ancient tsuba on uchigatana, by Keichiro Yokota #5 attributed to Myochin it's back to the smaller sized hitsu-ana but it has some alternate motifs at the top and bottom of the seppa-dai (instead of myoga/ginger), and a few other small embellishments in the way the sukashi elements were chiseled. So to sum up... a mish mash of attributions due to some overlapping physical features between schools and smiths. So we have published attributions and hakogaki to Higo's Matashichi and Kanshiro, ko-Akasaka, as well as Owari and Myochin. Then I also got some suggestions elsewhere for Kariganeya Hikobe as well. So the answer is ... still to be determined I suppose

@Jussi Ekholm, @Hoshi Thank you so much for the insight as always 🙏🙏🙏 My interests are similar to Jussi as I favor schools that produce rustic/stout blades. The sort of blades that would be considered " lacking elegance" and "artistic value" 😅 I dont think I will ever reach the level of ever considering blades at these price levels but intricacies and nuances when evaluating such blades will always fascinate me. I am very grateful to have knowledgable forum members for whenever these questions eat away at me. Thank you again 🙏

Hello, Delicate questions. In general, I recommend staying clear from recent TH papers to big names if you cannot assess it in hand and with sufficient experience studying higher level designations for said master. If this is not possible, only go in after having it appraised by someone who can hold it in hand, and has such experience. This is the value that a trusted dealer or collector friend brings. The reason for this is that the Shinsa panel is in a succession phase where it has to invest into new judges and ensure proper knowledge transmission - and this is a bumpy road. I has been so for a few years, let's see what happens at the upcoming Tokuju Shinsa. The last session had some eyebrow raising anomalies. For pieces attributed to Awataguchi Hisakuni, Shintogo Kunimitsu daito, Go Yoshihiro, Masamune without historical kiwame a respected Hon'ami judge or an entry into the Kanto Hibisho, it is quite delicate at the moment. I would even be exercise caution right now with zaimei pieces. With this wide caveat in place, there are still incredible pieces that can surface from time to time. Value wise, every tier of paper de-risks the object, that's all it does, the object does not change, and it is this de-risking that drives market perception and creates the price premium. If I'm a dealer and I tell you I have one of the best Nagamitsu, and it's sitting at TH, and I ask you 40 million yen for it, you're going to think I'm crazy. You won't believe me unless you have the knowledge to truly and deeply assess it, in relation to the corpus, and come up with your own conclusion that it is, in fact, one of the best extant Nagamitsu. Now if I tell you it passed Juyo session 3, then Tokuju session 6, all of a sudden it's a different story probabilistically speaking it is very likely amongst the ultimate blades extant. Sure, it might be the 'lesser' of the series, but these sessions contained an incredible density of treasures and on average, they contained more peak works. Advanced collectors know this, and dealers too, forming common knowledge around these heuristics. On the other hand, if you're one of the most experienced collectors in Japan, and you've "seen it all" - you look at the blade and you just know. You don't need the Juyo or Tokuju paper, you know what's out there, you've experienced most of it, you've been in the circles. You're ready to pay 40 million JPY in a blink for that blade sitting as a TH Nagamitsu. What's the value of his top blades? It's price = n/a. And the dealer might be very relieved you recognized it as such, and happy to sell it to you, because time is money and waiting for submission cycles is financially painful. He will put you into his serious client book, and propose you more such pieces in the future. If by miracle you get handed to you a zaimei Hisakuni tanto with denrai to the Imperial family -at Hozon- in good condition, it will be millions of dollars, and now the paradox kicks in that the buyer will be even happier as it's a secret blade that isn't recorded anywhere as some collectors just enjoy the secrecy a lot. This can help - for artists you follow, as you're looking for comparables out there, check out NW's artist database: https://nihontowatch.com/artists/nagamitsu-NAG281 Just be careful out there, if it looks like it's too good to be true, it probably is. I hope this helps, Hoshi

I am almost as far away from high end collector as you can be but I have spent lot of time with Jūyō data. First of all as a disclaimer I have to say I don't really like either of the swords. The den Gō should in my mind be a slam dunk for Jūyō - Date family ownership, excellent polish, Kanzan Sayagaki, Tanobe Sayagaki. Still every year I know that items that are in my mind bound to pass fail, and some other items that are unimpressive to me pass. The mumei Shintōgo Kunimitsu katana just passed Tokubetsu Hozon in 2025. Now take the following what I will write with a big grain of salt but I have sometimes really felt that way, just as a disclaimer I am not quality focused collector but historical. If you throw away the NBTHK papers attributing to Shintōgo Kunimitsu, would you pay 7,500,000 yen for that mumei sword? In my own opinion the NBTHK attribution sometimes carry too large value but market works how it works. Of course the fine workmanship of Shintōgo can not really be seen in few pictures. Still if I saw that mumei sword looking like it looks on the pictures I would just skip it without really even second thoughts about it, even if the price would be extremely lower than it currently is. I know it is a controversial take but hopefully it can get the discussion going.

Extra pictures of the koshirae:

PRICE: €3300 (EURO) Free shipping within the EU International shipping available (extra charge: €20–40) Express insured shipping (FedEx, UPS, DHL Express, etc.) Located in the Netherlands – Pickup available Payment Methods: Various payment methods are accepted, with bank transfer preferred. Please contact via PM to discuss payment options. Any questions are welcome. Feel free to contact me anytime. PS: There is no damage to the tip of the sword; this is a piece of dust still attached to the kissaki while taking pictures (which I did not notice when taking the images). There is also a Shirasaya, as can be seen in the first image.

Hello, everyone! I'm Liang. I currently live in Spain, although I am originally Chinese. Because I grew up using Chinese characters, it is somewhat easier for me to recognize and understand certain aspects of Japanese writing and culture. Since childhood I have always been drawn to finely made objects. Over the years I have enjoyed collecting different things, including amber, Leica cameras, silverware from Britain, the United States, and Denmark, as well as various forms of metalwork, sculpture, and some pieces of militaria. And of course, like many boys growing up, I have always had an interest in knives and firearms. Through this interest in craftsmanship I eventually discovered Japanese sword fittings. I find tosogu truly fascinating — the level of craftsmanship can be extraordinary, and the variety of subjects, schools, and techniques seems almost endless. It feels like a field that one could study and appreciate for a lifetime. While trying to learn more, I came across this forum. I have been reading many discussions here and I really appreciate the atmosphere and the knowledge generously shared by the members. I hope to learn from everyone here.

While I imagine some of the Australian members have seen these, I'm sure the other members might enjoy Lieutenant General Imamura and Baba's swords. General Imamuras sword was a gift from the Emperor in 1918 and is thought to have been made by Kanenori Miyamoto or Gassan Sadakatsu. Another interesting sword is a Kai Gunto of Lieutenant Kenshi Chuma, recovered from the midget sub that attacked Sydney harbour. Detailed info on the Kai Gunto: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C209155?image=3

G'day Guys, I visited the Jezzine Barracks Military Museum in Townsville yesterday. On display they have the sword of Major General Uno which was surrendered to Lt Col Ewan Robson in Banjarmasin, Kalimantan. Cheers, Bryce

Dale, it looks like a ginger cat to me!