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Greetings to All, Recently, I acquired a rather rusty tsuba as part of a deal for a Washida tsuba with another collector. This piece was thrown into the arrangement by the seller to meet the requested price range. Despite its condition, it showed some promise. The tsuba is signed Kyozan Mitsunaka + (Kao) ({嚮山 光中(花押)}) in kin-zogan. Based on the pictures, it appeared to feature brass hira-zogan of peonies and arabesques. Despite the rust, none of the inlays seemed to be missing - testament to the craftsmanship. The subject and execution also align well with works by Washida Mitsunaka or the Washida school. Seeing its potential, I decided to accept the deal, and both tsuba landed on my desk. Believing the piece was worth restoring, I sent it to Manuel @C0D for restoration, and I wasn't disappointed. Manuel did an outstanding job removing the rust and re-patinating the brass. If Manuel would like to elaborate on the restoration process, I would welcome it. The gamble paid off, as the final result is quite pleasing. As you can see, the tsuba has been brought back to life: I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. Regards, Luca P.S. I have to thank Manuel for allowing me to use the pictures he made.

為浅田眞吾君重代 – For Mr. Asada Shingo and successive generations

The answer is right there in your post. The character “刀” can be pronounced “tō” or “katana / gatana” meaning knife, but more accurately, meaning a *single edged blade*. “剑” or Ken is used to refer to double edged blades, hence when you combine the two you get the word 刀剑 or “Tōken”, implying the concept of both single and double edged blades - ie “swords” in general. The western notion that “katana” specifies a Japanese sword which is longer than both a tanto and a wakizashi but shorter than a tachi or odachi is true but also somewhat of a confusing simplification, enshrined now in classification by kantaisho but one we have become so accustomed to that we overlook it. In essence, what makes a katana a katana is when it’s a single edged Japanese sword which doesn’t fall into any of the other classifications. A “katana” is in fact the least specific of all blade classifications because it simply means it’s *not* defined as any of the others. Katana is the definition you are left with when you eliminate all other possibilities. Modelling knives in Japan are called kogatana, ko is simply 小 meaning small and 刀, meaning “small single edged blade” - exactly the same word as used for the kogatana that fit into kozuka and were carried as part of sword koshirae - but they are not the same thing. Now… the word 短, tan, which means “short” (as opposed to long) when combined with 刀 makes “Tantō” - the Japanese do not say “Tan-gatana” but they might as well. Short katana is sort of a direct but albeit confusing translation… But it gets weirder.. the earliest Japanese swords referred to as “katana” or gatana were no longer than around the size of a short wakizashi. These katana were the original “side swords” until society started to redefine what a side sword was, and the term wakizashi came much later.

Considering the complexity and rather broad range of the topic, this is an impressive undertaking and invaluable reference for anyone interested in Naval swords and Gendai Tosho.

Thank you for entrusting me with this restoration, at first it looked quite serious but after removing the oxidation I found that the original patina underneath was pretty much untouched by corrosion, also the zogan was rock solid in position, a testament to the quality of the work from this tsubashi. So I just had to make a new patina on the brass and stabilize the iron patina. It was a pleasure bringing back to life this excellent work.

For people who missed it:

I thought some of you might find this interesting. I cannot find a copy of this article online and think that this is as good a place as any to share it. So, without further ado, here is the segment in question from 'Asia' magazine, May 1939, titled 'The Rusty Swords of Japan- A Study in the Death of a Philosophy' by Alan Wilson Watts. Enjoy.

Thanks God a piece of useful information from this thread: Cornell University is confirmed an unreliable place to go for tosogu studies!

@KungFooey I second Sam's comments. You have joined a bunch of old farts that can speak without any filters. Regardless of what we say, we honestly enjoy your company! Plus, you have to keep in mind how easy it is to misunderstand things said in text. In person, one has body language, facial expressions, and tones of voice to help read comments the way they are meant. Conversations online lose all that, and easily get going sideways, when that never would have happened in person.

Another in the fascinating series. A little sad as it's clear at 83 he's winding down. Hopefully his apprentices listened and learned well so the next generations can continue the art.

Thanks to Shingen Rick The link should be permantly available on line at the link below https://1drv.ms/b/c/...PRH9ul7uOPA?e=vwfI53 If there is a problem post rather than PM me so Rick can see it as well I've tried the link on three different browsers and it works for me The NMB comes through with another winner - thanks Brian and Rick

Superb job, Manuel. This piece has come back to life straight from the junk box. Washida Mitsunaka has produced several tsuba of this kind like https://www.metmuseu...lection/search/23060

Dan, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but if you can find more cast Tsuba in museum collections and cross reference them with: donor life span, donation date, and date donor likely acquired them (by known expeditions).... you may get closer to an edo period 'confirmed' casting. There are a lot of museum collections that hold Tsuba acquired by westerners pre-1900... the major museums will likely have larger collections and better records, but there will be a ton more smaller museums which are more likely to hold cast Tsuba. Might be a wild goose chase, but you might also discover a cast Tsuba that was acquired during an expedition shortly after the mid 1880's, that eventually ended up as a museum donation.

Rare occasion when he is quite wrong because he is using a quote from an English language source and using English language terminology which isn’t in fact technically applicable to the subject at hand. He should know better. Swords are measured and classified accordingly in shaku, sun, bu and rin. A sun-nobi tanto is a tanto which exceeds the prescribed length of a tanto by *around* one sun. That is to say, it looks like a tanto, walks like a tanto and sounds like a tanto, so it is in fact a tanto, which is why we call it a sun-nobi tanto, but the the authorities in their infinite wisdom *officially* record it as wakizashi on kanteisho. Pure semantics and classification debate which is removed from the actual use / technique and application of each type of weapon. Terminology loophole if you will.

The plot thickens! Seems there are character variations within this Kanesada lineage. Akira Komiya over at WRF has pointed out that the 2nd generation Kanesada used 兼㝎 instead of 兼定. So maybe that is what is seen above? Strange sword Akira referenced the following Japanese Wikipedia article. 和泉守兼定

Will have to leave the translation to those more adept, the location is a bit special and often used for dedications. Sometimes it can be used for swords with extensive inscriptions and cutting tests where there is literally no more room left to add anything else. One instance was a rather spectacular Utsushi-Mono that noted the original sword in gold inlay. The only one that I can offer a link for is this Gassan Sadakazu, with the presentation added to the Nakago Mune sometime after the sword was made: https://nihontoart.c...l-treasure-sadakazu/

“The exception proves the rule.” Really interesting subject, and there is much more to it, but Jean and Tcat above have just about deconfused it for us. (Traditional Nihontō classification and modern education committee bureaucratic classifications do not always agree on the fine detail. The latter is based more on mathematics. Most Japanese seem to ride with it when there are two answers.)

I hope you don’t leave the forum @KungFooey, I’ve enjoyed your contributions here. Most are just critical about a hobby that they are passionate about, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Some could work on their bedside-manner, but we’re here for swords and swords are sharp All the best. Cheers, -Sam

Sorry, I have not been able to get back to this discussion. I was badly injured in an accident with my ribs along my back from the Scapula down along the T4, 5, 6 and my left hand crushed along the 3rd, 4th, 5th Metacarpal, the 4th medial phalange was dislocated as well. But what made it worse is the Radiologist informed me there were tumors inside my bones. So if anyone is interested in purchasing my swords let me know.

So Okan, here is the link that Steven was referring to on the San Diego Tsuba. Scroll down somewhat and you will find it. https://tsubakansho.com/tag/cast/ In the upper right-hand corner of the picture shown under San Diego Tsuba, you will see a 16 petal chrysanthemum tsuba. Then in the other pictures, you will be able to discern pieces of molds that appear to have a kiku (chrysanthemum) motif. Don't get me started if those molds were used for soft metal or cast iron! Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc (I crack myself up!). Onward!

Here is a 28..Momoyama probably but I'm not sure.

Here are a pair of sword guards made by (Shodai) Kawaguchi Hoan in kikugata: 1. 16-petals, matsukawabishi sukashi with sukidashibori featuring kiri-mon, finished in light yakite-kusarashi (signed "Hoan" on the ura). Momoyama Period. 2. 24 petals, two gourds inlaid, one in gold, one in silver. This tsuba is noteworthy for the large nakago-ana present in a relatively small guard. The other tsuba included here is larger than this one, but with a substantially smaller nakago-ana. Momoyama Period.

Colleagues I have updated a new version of Japanese Naval Swords WW2 Swordsmiths & Workshops Part 1. This 2024 paper is an upgrade of the 2021 version, it is reorganised with appreciably more examples but with some significant corrections. Of note is the issue of Naval arsenal stamps and some long held, but incorrect views, in particular in regard to the Toyokawa Arsenal in Aichi (this arsenal did not produce swords). If you have the 2021 version, please delete it and use this one. It was outdated and I hope any errors addressed. Part 2, is likewise being upgraded and will soon be uploaded. I found it all a rather challenging topic. cheers Mal

Interestingly enough, as is often the case with ChatGPT summaries, it is so broadly "distilled" as to be virtually unusable. It sounds good upon first reading, but seriously lacks detail. You could use that very same set of criteria that it listed for Ohno, to describe almost any of the school constructs that are grouped in with "Owari-Momoyama-ness": ie. Owari, Kanayama, and Yagyu tsuba (although Yagyu tsuba were later than the rest)... ,but it definitely does not describe Yamakichibei tsuba (where round shapes are the exception rather than the more typical mokko or lobed shapes, and irregular asymmetry in the sukashi pattern and execution is nearly always the norm). Note: I have tried ChatGPT many times in the past, and even made some past NMB posts using its results, only to discover multiple flaws and limitations of using ChatGPT ) Oh and, Happy new year by the way

I would agree Shigeyoshi - a well regarded smith thus you want to be cautious. Could we see a photo of the whole tang? -tom

Really stunning pieces, thank you for sharing! I love these before and after threads. They really shows the potential beauty hiding in the rough. I'd be proud to have such a tsuba! Cheers, -Sam

Il be honest, not really looked at blades and assume gimei without looking further. Even so, still a fair deal. For a display daisho, swords have to be of no importance, otherwise price goes sky high. Swords are adequate for purpose, for me.

Think two swords like that deserve a nice Japanese stand. Don't have be old and megabucks, see them on Fleebay at reasonable prices, oldish wood stands. Ps, for someone just wanting a display without wanting to spend a fortune, then i guess the Daisho i linked could suffice. Also, never going to know when those two swords were put together for sure. May have been late Edo, may have been together in other koshirae previously. I guess one would need to take a real close look for further clues. Evaluate all the fittings and fit and wear. Says in "old polish", just noticed that.

Hi Lewis, I don't think so in the west - I think Ray Singer answered a similar question recently with the conclusion that, as it is a special order sword, it would have received the smith's best efforts and superior materials and therefore be superior to his normal production. Not sure if that would be the case in Japan.

hhahahaha you wish, i price my swords so they dont take months to sell, im not greedy i like to share my good faith with the members here by pricing everything at very affordable prices. i was blessed with good eyes, and i let others share in the good luck, like many aussie collectors, Neil, john and others we sell so new collectors have a chance. happy new year

I would say Tadayoshi is worth 10k alone, even without Koshirae. It is attractive to me to be honest, but I'm 'Hizen guy', especially if it comes to Mutsu Tadayoshi. Still, the fact about 'Daisho fever' being something that can be used by dealers, stays.

Blimey, Jacques is wrong….😳 Anyway, the old ways are the best🙂

Chas, it is best not to do anything at all to try to clean the blade or remove rust on your own. If you would like to improve the condition, I would recommend speaking with a professional polisher to do so. Message me if you need any recommendations. Best regards, Ray

樋入大刀 – Sword with grooves It might be an imitation sword for Iai practice.

Here are some more of the beautiful photos that AOIJapan posted of the kissaki of that blade. Cheers, Bryce

Okan, These last two tsuba you have posted, and the second in particular, remind me of the "San Diego tsuba" that were recovered from the wreck of a Spanish ship on its way to the Philippines in the year 1600. If you search around the Internet, you'll find some interesting information on this. Jim Gilbert's blog post (Tsuba Kansho) on these tsuba is enlightening, especially since there is a reference to molds uncovered from an early-Edo Period site in Nara. These molds are thought to have been used to cast tsuba in soft metal, such as bronze and yamagane. Your tsuba above appears to be cast, based on certain details such as the mei and the kiku punch marks around the nakago-ana.

Another very interesting one. It belongs to a friend. I couldn’t figure out the mei, but my gut says it should have been on an important sword.

maybe the use of kanji can help again. sun=寸=inch nobi=延=extend so sunnobi simply means extended by 1 "inch", which is not the current english measurement system. its old Japanese which is a bit longer than the english inch.

First of all I have to say a big thank you to the kind members in this forum who helped me a lot getting into the world of fittings, since I don't had a clue and of course still don't have. At least it's getting a little bit better with the vocabulary. It's an exciting and interesting world and although I wanted to wait and don't hesitate my first buy, I couldnt wait and ... won an auction. Dont hold back and tell me your opinion on my first buy especially regarding the theme and the Mei. The description said it's Nobuie from Momoyama period, which it is definitely not. Thx to a dear member I already got to know that it's for Wakizashi and that two of the characters say "Mori Yuki"

That is seriously impressive work. Congrats.

Just for fun, here is a micro tanto. I havn't yet seen one so detailed and wonder about its origins.

I just want to clarify this because I think the discussion has conflated things a bit. A tantō has a blade less than 1 shaku in length, 30.3 cm. A wakizashi has a blade length of between 1 and 2 shaku, and anything over 2 shaku is a katana or tachi. You said your blade has a length of 28 cm, so it is a tantō. An aikuchi koshirae is one that lacks a tsuba (example). A hamidashi koshirae in comparison has a small tsuba (example).

What is silly to some is not silly to others. What is a redundant question is not redundant to the person asking it. Surely the point of a Forum is to help and educate everyone especially those trying to make a start in this hobby. What is a horrible blade is also quite probably someones first sword bought with great excitement. The reaction he gets here and how that reaction is delivered could either encourage him or break his spirit. Going forwards this hobby needs all the new blood it can get…..they are the ones who will buy our collections when we leave the planet. …and of course it’s not compulsory to read or reply to topics that are below your pay grade. We all started somewhere.

Thanks Bruce I just lowered the price from 2600 to 1900 steve

I find the stamps he used on the tsuba interesting. It suggests that he may have sometimes used different stamps to the few that I have seen marking his blades. Below is a shot of the koshirae that was with the sword. Tsuruta San of AOIJapan thinks that Sadakazu may have made all of the metal work for the koshirae. The fact that he isn't absolutely sure suggests that only the tsuba must be signed. Cheers, Bryce

8.92 cm x 8.85 cm x .2 cm at center and .4 cm at rim. Weight 102 g Kozuka-ana appears to be original based on its oblong shape. Patina has been rubbed/grown thin in a number of places but some spots reveal a depth of color and beautiful sheen. I believe that with TLC or professional restoration the condition of the patina can be greatly improved. Comes with box and pillow. $875 OBO plus shipping/insurance

G'day Guys, One of the reasons why I am fascinated with the Gassan smiths, is that they are the complete package. Not only are they excellent swordsmiths, but they also carve beautiful horimono, make their own habaki and from time to time make their own tsuba. AOIJapan recently had a magnificent example of this by Gassan Sadakazu. The sturdy blade which is forged in masame, is dated 1866 and has beautiful Fudo Myo horimono. The original koshirae includes a tsuba signed by Sadakazu. A similar tsuba is shown in the "Gassan Sadaichi Kaiko Ten" book. Cheers, Bryce

Two Kai Gunto by Sakai Ikkansai Shigemasa, who was listed as KJT. There don't appear to be any extra marks or stamps on these swords, but one imagines they may have been made as efforts for the KJT? 1944: https://www.legacy-collectibles.com/022423-1.html Corrosion is obscuring the date, 1943?: https://page.auction.../auction/m1145423305 In my humble collection is a Shigemasa dated 1943 with special order for an army Lt Colonel, so it appears he was making swords for multiple branches/programs without any exclusivity.