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As most of you know, I've been recovering from 2 surgeries for a perianal (embarrassing area) abscess that spread rapidly and they had to slice and dice me to remove necrotic tissue. Spent 8 days in hospital, and have been recovering at home the last 10. Slow recovery that makes sitting, standing and walking very difficult. At the same time I (finally) got diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes. I always pretty much knew I had it, but was stupid enough to wait for them to tell me. Anyways, it just makes everything more difficult, but I'll deal with it ok and am just lumping it into everything. That said, I think I am making some progress. Likely will be off until early Jan, and haven't been able to participate here as much as usual. But am monitoring and following everything. So...A big thanks to you guys for generally behaving yourselves and have seen some fascinating discussion, lots of sales and lots of good info and translations. I appreciate you guys removing some of the stress I anticipated, and am really happy with the way things carry on without micro managing. At the same time, I really do have to send a HUGE thanks to those of you who have supported the forum by renewing Gold memberships or sending some contributions for sales done etc. I was a little stressed about paying fees etc while I was laid up, but you supporters have really pulled though for me and taken a lot of that stress too. We have some great members here, and a bunch of new faces too, giving good questions and answers. And of course the old faces that are the heart of the forum that maintain the flow and strength of this place. So whether you didn't even know about the health issues and just carried on as you usually do, or whether you just participate with questions, answers or discussion, or whether you have supported us with subscriptions or donations..or whether you just lurk and read the forum....a huge thanks to you all. This is as good a time as any to wish you all a wonderful Festive Season and a prosperous New Year. Thanks to all of you, even the instigators who (in their own way) stoke debate and analysis. I'm here, just taking it slow and steady. Best to all. - B -

I think what Glen has presented regarding the unreliability (as concerns factual information) of a good portion of the literature, as well as the imperfect results received at times through shinsa, pretty clearly establish that "the system is broken." But Florian's words are right on target, as I think, are Thomas's here. There is sufficient doubt about the veracity of significant parts of the information passed down to point to a fairly dramatic reform. But as Florian and Thomas are saying, is it realistic to expect that to happen? It seems hard enough to envision an "ideal" new system, never mind one based in reality and pragmatism. Are we stuck with what we have, then? If so, how best to combat or mitigate its worst effects? This may be a more productive approach than to look to tear down the foundations, again, just realistically speaking. I do wonder if establishing quasi-formal, well-organized Study Groups, in part based off of the arguments Glen is making in these threads, but also expanding into other areas, might be a useful approach. I hesitate even to bring up the idea, simply because of the logistical realities involved in bringing such groups together, especially with any frequency. *Note: I do not feel Study Groups that are conducted online would be sufficient; the material needs to be seen and handled in person. I'm really just sort of thinking out loud here, though. Another way to go, perhaps, would be for some of us to begin to produce formal writing (published articles rather than informal, hurried forum posts) that, rather than attacking the current system, simply employ a more reliable analytical method applied to a well-focused topic to arrive at "new" understandings about given tsuba, tsubako, "schools," and the like. In any event, the status quo seems unpalatable to some (many?) of us. To Florian's point, finding a way out of these catacombs is daunting, but to Glen's point, really seems necessary regardless.

Posting here for anyone interested. Feel free to move or delete @Brian, if this is redundant info. Free for anyone to use/share/send/save. Cheers, -Sam

A PSA regarding recent reproductions/fake chain hangers being sold from yahoo auctions, ebay, and other sources. These are being sold as originals by unscrupulous vendors. https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/l1164696466 https://page.auction.../auction/f1139030152

Uh, ok. I think you may have misunderstood me. As I clearly said in the first post of this thread, once I had it in hand, it was obvious to me that it was made up of parts likely none of which are original to the blade. That does not bother me, given the price. I also am fully aware that the the torokusho is NOT any sort of "pedigree" or registration besides the Japanese gov't being made aware the sword exists and is not illegal. I put it in a cheap $5 frame because it looks nice and is part of the story. The blade has "nasty wear" and a "poor polish". I don't care. All I want is to know when it was made, and where, and by whom if possible. If this carving on the tang is not from the maker, and from that period, then is it Chinese junk faked to look like something it is not? Or is the blade original, but not attested to this signature? If so, who signed it, and when? And why? As for "how bad I was ripped off", again, don't care. I paid about a third again over your high estimate because it appealed to me visually, and I felt it was worth a chance that it was, in fact, a pre-1800 blade, with original fittings, as the seller stated to me. I also knew the tsuba was not original to the sword, and am looking for a mote fitting replacement. I bought it based on my subjective opinion. I did not think I was buying a NBTHK rated and papered sword for $2000. What I did buy, was an amazing collection of period parts that makes me just as happy. I only posted to show it, learn a little, and have fun participating rather than reading and not getting off to a collecting start. Thanks for all the info posted, all valuable to me, and deeply appreciated. Jeff

I do believe there are still thousands of items that should eventually pass the coveted Jūyō shinsa. As you can see 600+ swords were sent to this session, so there is steady flow of items coming in to try. I am personally not a fan of NBTHK's several tiers of submissions, even though I understand the system a bit. Currently I believe around 120,000+ swords have passed Hozon shinsa and 75,000+ swords have passed Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa. These are just NBTHK numbers there are also lots and lots of awesome items in Japan that will most likely not be appraised by NBTHK. I would love to be a fly on the wall and see all of the swords that were sent in order to try understand the bigger picture. I can't really figure out the game as sometimes it just seems weird that some passes are absent from some sessions while they are abundant in general and vice versa, some passes came in unexpected bunches. For example I was looking at signed Samonji tantō as there were 2 passing this session 70. There seems to be weird intervals when I look from sessions 30-70. In 31,32,33 - 3 of them passed. In session 41 - 1 passed. 49 & 50 have 4 passes, 58,59,60 - 4 passes. Now in 70 there were 2 passes. This can be just total coincidence but it seems like there are signed Samonji passes c. every 10 years and then it is silent again in between. Still I feel it is crazy to look at the data. Then some things you can usually take for granted is things like a Norishige or 2,3,4 passing. From 50 to 70 the session 56 is only one where a Norishige didn't pass. Within just these sessions 41 Norishige blades have passed. However there must be a lot of competition for Norishige as many of them get probably submitted to every session. However there are always the fresh air in form of super unknown smith, and I personally love that. For example the Bingo Kanetsugu is extreme rarity, I believe this sword is actually Okayama Prefecture Bunkazai that has now passed through NBTHK, it would be too much of coincidence to have exactly the same sized sword signed and dated to same year by very unknown smith. Here is the link to Prefecture Bunkazai: https://www.pref.oka...ttachment/261317.pdf Unfortunately I do not yet have picture of this, but when book 70 will be published I aim to get it. Bingo Shigetoshi seems to be another rarity, so far I haven't been able to find any item of his. Extremely important that items like these pass so they will be documented vs. sword being the 56th mumei Shizu katana that passed Jūyō. I know I am biased in my view and I understand some mumei ō-suriage items are of extremely high quality. Now it seems this is actually a first Jūyō session where a single Ichimonji did not pass bit mindblowing fact for myself.

Family name on good quality mounts from a Koshirae shop rarely seen, thought it was interesting that the name in silver matched the name scratched into the fittings. https://origami-token.ru/catalog/arkhiv-mechi/bolshoy_katana_khisakadzu_v_oprave_morskogo_ofitserskogo_mecha/

Hi Jeff, I am looking forward to more photos. Even if the signature is gimei, the blade still appears to be genuine. Your post inspired me to create this little photo guide. I hope @ROKUJURO approves . I’m open to feedback. Be sure to take photos well lit against a dark background. Ideally centered overhead with the tip north and nakago south. You’ve already covered a couple of these, but here’s my guide that I hope helps. Best of luck, -Sam

The Northern California Japanese Sword Club does three kinds of Kantei each month - Hands-on Kantei at our in-person meetings. Paper Kantei in the pages of our newsletter. Zoom Kantei where you are emailed a question and we then get together on Zoom to find the answer together. All in English and all for just $60 a year! We welcome enthusiastic students of all levels. Join us! -tch

Good for you Jeff!!! There are a lot of true experts here who handle treasures you and me could only dream about. They share their wisdom freely and generously - I have benefitted from it myself many times in my short time here. unfortunately, there are others who turn a beginners question into an opportunity to 'score criticism points' and maybe they forget how discouraging it comes across sometimes. i like your sword and, if you do too, nuts to the gainsayers.

@Steve Waszak Steve, i think we'll have to agree to disagree on some of those points. Maybe a discussion to be had over a few drinks rather than on a forum But no matter what, in the scientific community, if a new concept is published, it must be peer reviewed and be supported by evidence. No novel statement can ever be taken as factual without meeting those standards. It stays in the realm of "theory" until then. @Iekatsu Thomas, I couldn't agree more about the last statement you made. I'd also like to suggest, in the defense of the actual real people who work for the NBTHK... If the current grading system is already built on flawed categories (which it is), then the many "wrong" attributions we have all seen in papers, are perhaps less due to random "human error" (although surely some accidents will happen under rushed shinsa conditions), and perhaps more to do with the fact that the categories themselves are flawed and not clearly definable under the current system that only has a limited number of "school concepts" to place the attributions under.

His manner may be unpleasant, but who else triggers this much interesting discussion? Without such firebrands as Jacques, we could quickly revert to a forum extolling the virtues of mumei suriage shinto wakizashi and Chinese fakes.....

☆ 武蔵国昭幸造之　☆ Musashi-no-kuni Akiyuki tsukuru kore. 昭和十九年一月吉日 A lucky day in January 1944. Musashi Province Found a second one in Japan. 表：昭和18年10月吉日 裏：武蔵国昭幸造之 https://aucview.com/yahoo/k173657682/

I appreciate these nice comments. Indeed, this list is a fine community that helps a wide range of folks interested in Japanese swords. "Sword collecting" certainly is not the activity it once was and there is a great generation shift going on. Isn't it interesting how "international" sword appreciation has become. The hobby I discovered depended on a disorganized mass of war souvenirs and a trivially small literature. Now, thanks largely to communities like this one and the labor of folks like our dear Brian (thank you thank you!), information is readily available. There was a time when we had to teach ourselves how to read signatures. And it was a slow process. B. W. Robinson taught us how to count strokes and read the kanji so that we could dig thru Hawley and find what mattered. Golly it was fun, but now all that information can be provided expertly - and really rather politely and positively - in a matter of hours. Thanks to this fine list!

NBTHK released the Jūyō 70 results today on their website: https://www.touken.or.jp/Portals/0/pdf/shinsa/第70回重要刀剣等指定品発表.pdf I had fun time after work going through it like always. I did the yearly translation to western alphabets like I do every year. This features all the 91 items passed, doing the fittings is getting easier as I do have all the previous Jūyō results to tackle the fitting makers I do not know. There might be a fitting guy or 2 in there that I still have incorrectly. It is always good to go over the old results too and fix the errors I have made. For example I found out I had 戸張富久 Tobari Tomihisa incorrectly in previous session, to be honest I had no clue at all about this maker but finding a tsuba by him from Iidakoendo I must admit the work is spectacular to my eye. After going through the results I can say I am just very puzzled... I know my own personal valuation criteria are most likely different than NBTHK has for their Jūyō shinsa. I am stunned by the lack of Bizen items in total - 5. In comparison to me it seems crazy that 5 items from Rai school passed. Also what was noticeable to me was the lack of signed tachi in general (2 tachi & 1 kodachi, 3 in total). Also to be noted koshirae and fittings are very high in number compared to their usual amount vs. swords. Juyo 70.pdf

Clearly cast for me. Not EDO.

He does indeed. Anything that helps people to post usable photos is welcome.

For me, the only Kantei that matters at the end of the day is the "Kantei" you spend your money on ,as in making sure a sword is what it is stated to be, the rest is just a bit of fun. We all know that attempting this type of "kantei" is impossible without books and the internet for 99.9% that come here and unless you have bought a sword from such a school and done the study before hand. Jeez, even NBTHK need lots of references for shinsa. Here, often surprised as many get very close and a few always get it right. Oh, and Jacques. Even with all your collection of books i have seen you way off the mark in "kantei" here, not even in the correct era. So don't talk down to people, you are not the all seeing eye, no one is.

I agree on the open available connection to the best experts here. I have privately had exchanges with a few, and everyone has been helpful. Im not concerned at all, I guess if I'm this happy with it, what could be wrong? Im anxious to get a solid ID of the blade and smith/period for sure. I know I need to provide more photos of higher quality first. No comments or opinions are unwelcome! Jeff

A Heian-jo Style tsuba from my collection.

Here’s the one that’s been in my collection for a while Cheers, -Sam

It is always going to be a sliding scale of probability, there will always be significant gaps in what is known and that is ok. I think that the primary point of this thread is acknowledging that those gaps exist and that some of the established and accepted knowledge is not much more than conjecture without credible sources. The NBTHK grading is flawed because many categorisations are based on dated or flawed logic. This is something that is unlikely to be rectified, because it would potentially nullify papers that have already been issued. A new system could be created, but perhaps that is a topic for another thread.

Hi Richard! NBTHK or NTHK, who cares! You stated "what a thrill"! I bet it was! Well done! It is a beautiful piece to be treasured (my opinion!).

Hi Dan! I first submitted it, unsuccessfully, to NBTHK. A friend recently submitted his own items to NTHK during a trip to Japan and kindly offered to take my tsuba with him, if I was willing to risk the shinsa fee. So it seems to be a split opinion between the two organizations. It’s my understanding that NBTHK’s judgments carry more weight—but still, what a thrill!

Here. here! All the very best to you both.

All the best for your wedding and a long life together!

I really appreciate that 'old hands' still visit and contribute to this forum - without which, as others have alluded to, the place would devolve into a rather tiresome and repetitive discussion of fundamentals and merrygorounds of the blind leading the blind. There is too much to learn and too many idiots eager to speak without knowing anything.

Further reading regarding Uchigatana Koshirae, which is generally how one determines what to classify these if not signed: https://nihonto.com/uchigatana-koshirae/

Mounts could be original from those photos, not the first time we've seen chinese fake blades bodged together with original fittings.

I guess you saw this one Musashi on JS Index The other has different kanji "yuki" AKIYUKI (昭行), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gunma – “Akiyuki” (昭行), real name Kurihara Washio (栗原鷲雄), he worked as a rikugun-jumei-tōshō http://www.japaneses...oshigata/akiyuki.jpg

In principle, a kantei is practised without opening a book; it's an exercise in memory. I'll rarely make a mistake with a Rai because it's a school I know particularly well, but I wouldn't say the same about the Nio school, for example, which I know very little about because I've only had the opportunity to study one, which is very, very inadequate.

And you, mi amigo, have clearly completely missed the point of the entire paragraph from which the quote you use was drawn. What is the subject of that paragraph? CONNOTATION IN PHRASING. As distinct from DENOTATION. It is abundantly clear what your statement DENOTES. And frankly, I'm surprised that you think I could "erroneously interpret" such obviously clear DENOTATION. Sheesh. Reread that paragraph. Carefully. The focus is on the connotative impact (the reception) of how something is PHRASED. This MATTERS, whether you INTEND such an effect or not. And the words you add at the end illustrate that you're just not seeing this. You say, "It needs some kind of validation before it can be accepted as a fact." Okay, and lacking such validation, which is exceptionally rarely occurring in tosogu studies, which I'm sure you know, what is the take away? That something "may or may not be true"? Such wishy-washy language is effectively meaningless. Empty. It goes nowhere. May + may not = ZERO. Total non-starter. And this is WHY the connotative impact of your phrasing plausibly can lead to the conclusion for many (not for ALL) that the claim in question is false, or at the very least, dubious, for no actual REASON.

There are surprisingly many Masamune TH. Some are TH because they have a lot of damage; I personally believe there were two "Masamune" - real one, early smith with a very calm work, and someone from 1330-1360, very close to Go with a crazy over the top style, but at least one fukure per blade. If you don't see fukure, it has been suriaged (yes, he could do fukure in nakago). If there are 4 fukure each 1-2cm in size (there are such blades) it does not get above TH. The second case is Masamune which becomes Shizu at Juyo (too much masame to ignore).

Hi Florian! Thanks for sharing. Some really nice examples of kamon motifs on tsuba that you posted!

Honda Aoi Mon

Deanne, I like them round and simple, and of course made of iron!

Would you say the image colour is accurate? As you point out it doesn't look to have been fitted to a blade [unless it was not necessary to "tighten the fit" with tagane.] Well to my eyes it looks sandblasted clean, which would contribute to the rounded edges of the nakago-ana and the general pitted look. But possibly cast - though there is little direct evidence, just a few questionable spots. You could do the "drop test" but that is rather drastic. If you didn't spend too much it is always worth a gamble - alloy fakes are selling for stupid high prices, so an iron guard that may have been "over cleaned" and appeals to you is a no brainer. I presume you don't have it in hand just yet? There is usually "something" that speaks to you when you hold one and can really see it in good light. Good luck

Hi Jeff, I'm glad you're enjoying your new blade. A solid ID might be a bit tricky, but this is where the fun begins: https://nihontoclub....a=All&school_nid=All The above is a link to smiths signing Yasumitsu on an online database. First up, you can eliminate those using different kanji to those on your blade, then you need to have a trawl through to pick out those signing with a two character mei and then identify the work style of the smiths you identify as candidates to see how they compare with your own. It's interesting to note that all of these candidates were working pre 1600 and for me your blade fits into this period - as Dee notes the tang colour and lack of machi point that way but also it was a long blade as the registration certificate has it down at over 70cm and it has been shortened (measuring the distance between the two peg holes and adding that on to the present blade length will give an approximate idea of it's length when unaltered). It's possible that your guy might not be listed on this database or not be in the textbooks at all, but I don't feel that it's likely to be gimei as there are too many candidates - someone faking signatures is going to do it in a way that the smith can be easily identified and it's likely to be clearly one of the bigger names of the bunch. Sure it has some flaws but it's an old soldier that has literally been through the wars and there's nothing to not like, particularly if you like a research project.

I'm with you there, Glen. And I think your thoughts here identify an interesting idea, namely, that the aims of the scientific community (arriving at factual knowledge via disciplined, logical methodology) may differ somewhat from those of the humanities, whose ultimate aims pertain to knowledge that is perhaps more philosophically based/concerned, or even the "soft sciences," where identifying the most plausible theories is the quarry, since the answers to many of their inquiries can have no factual answer. As for Sasano's theories, oh yes, lots of contentiousness and rancor there! It's pretty well known in Japanese tsuba circles, I believe, how much division there was between those who subscribed to Sasano's timelines, and those who did not. Academic squabbling: who would sink to such lows???

Here you are.

Just taking a quick peak at the Owari section, and it's quite the leap from the original Japanese. I cannot understand how they got from 上下張り気味 (tends to be stretched up-down/vertically) to "squared seppa-dai". Likewise, going from 精良 to "hard and refined" (it seems to simply mean "excellent", which could be translated as refined, i.e. that forging took place to make the iron cleaner, but it does not imply hardness at all; 精 can mean strength, but more in the sense of vigor, it is incidentally one of the kanji for semen, to show the meaning of "vigor").

They are clearly brand new, the quality of the clips is different, the yahoo auction sellers other items are newly made fake fittings, and the ebay sellers are from China. Having foolishly bought one without closely looking at the photos and seller, the differences are night and day. Originals should have some signs of age, no matter how good the condition.

Hey Richard! That is great that the NTHK papered your tsuba! It is a beautiful piece! This is the 21st century, why doesn’t the NTHK give an English translation included with their papers? As I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong) when you first sent it in for shinsa, it came back gimei! Then you sent it in again, and they papered it! This is a good example of what GRC is saying in his “Established ideas that need to change - 3: Pre-Edo period schools & Reliance on NBTHK papers” thread. You would figure that if the so called experts labeled it as gimei at first, then it would always be gimei! What changed?

Sweet! You guys pinned it down - and Thomas, that province explains a lot! So, this one is Arai Akiyuki, from Musahi province. Done!

Bruce, He seems to be a somewhat obscure smith. Sesko's and Hawley's only list Kurihara. No Akiyuki listed in the Gendai Toko Meikan, Gendaito Meisaku Zuikan, or any of the other references I checked. No examples of his mei found other than the one you posted. Did you ask Alf?

Rust color on the tang and no hamachi - sure doesn't look Showa to me.🤔

Got my NTHK sword papers from the 2024 Orlando Japanese Sword Show today. Excited all over again. Thank you to all those that put this together and again thank you Mark for another Great Show. MikeR

Darin, that is gorgeous!

In fact what is an oshigata : it is a hand drawing no more nor less which represents all the characteristics shown by a blade. That's all. As stated by Clive, it takes a lot of concentration (hours) in order to be able to capture all the activities of hamon. Above all when considering a tachi/katana. You must see through the polish. As comparison, for flyfisher fellows (I know they are numerous on the board) it is not unlike fishing at sight with nymph a greyling or trout under running water and watch the strike. It take years to be trained. I shall give an example : here is a picture of my last sword and its Oshigata. Surprising , isn'it Yes Oshigata is an art Doc1.doc