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The cup shaped tsuba were influenced by the swords worn by Europeans. Anything European was exotic and fashionable in the 16th century and later. The main seaport the European ships used was Nagasaki in Kyushu so a lot of the cup shaped tsuba come from Kyushu tsuba groups like Hizen and Higo. European influence in tsuba design has been discussed several times. https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/44557-funny-shape-tsuba/#comment-462729 https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18403-namban-hands-up-if-you-like-namban-tsuba/ for examples. The shape of the tsuba is mostly about the visual effect the smith desires, the shape would not noticeably affect the balance of the sword.

I picked this one up on a whim, mostly because I liked the unusual shape, and the the autumn theme. Can anyone shed any light on the school or origins of this type of design? I can’t seem to find many that have this symmetrical ryo mokko gata design.

These are the 4 NBTHK papered Yagyu that I have owned. While you might find one or two in the design books, defining a Yagyu tsuba is a more a mixture of the design+materials+execution. Each of these tsuba has a relatively solid meaning behind the design. Each has the sandy grey grit iron that is associated with Yagyu construction. Each has the squared off mimi. Some have the filo dough layers evident on the mimi, but some do not. Just remember that a lot of Yagyu are not in the design books. Don't get fixated on something from the design books. More over, a lot of other schools copied the ones in the design books. You will have a lot of tsuba that are or Yagyu design, but tick none of the other boxes of what is considered Yagyu. Repeating myself from above: Defining "Yagyu" often comes down to the materials+the design+execution (the geometry, etc.)

I one time bought something outside the EU with all the necessary paperwork and customs was just a troublemaker. Didn’t except my paperwork and wanted me to pay for stuff that I didn’t need. After a couple weeks they somewhat admitted that they were wrong and gave me my item. And that only because I got in contact with someone that has authority. Because of that I don’t want to deal with them anymore. They try to search for the smallest things. I could very well imagine that they look at a shin gunto and might see that the handle has ray skin. Then they ask what kind of ray, is it protected and so on. Not worth the trouble in my opinion.

Thanks Brian Mike -- where in IN are you located? I am near Toledo OH......... i have several wakizashi in the $3-600 range. If you are close you can come and see swords in hand by email is nixe@bright.net Mark

Actually the Europeans and the Japanese mounted them both ways. For the Japanese, mounting it convex side toward the tsuka would make any carving or decoration more visible, also less likely for the tsuba to interfere with the fingers. Attached is an example of one mounted concave side toward the tsuka, also a rapier mounted convex side toward the hilt.

Ok, thank you for the heads up and for taking your time to answer my questions Sam! I will pass on that sword and wait for another one. I will keep an eye out on the for sale section. Thanks to everybody that replied! Best Regards Kjell

This is just a personal opinion but I would just take the NBTHK attribution as probably the best opinion available. Similarily to mumei swords the attributions for such partial mei are not absolute. I believe their decision was that Kiyomitsu would be the most plausible opinion judged by their expert panel. I would just treat it as late Muromachi Bizen sword, could be Kiyomitsu, Sukesada, Munemitsu, Harumitsu etc. and the actual maker does not affect much to me as the mei is so partial. I do think it is a sword that has interesting hamon. I can make a comparison to your other thread, as there are variations in Kiyomitsu collecting too. I believe Gorōzaemon is regarded as the best Late Muromachi Bizen Kiyomitsu smith. So aiming for the top you would look for very good sword that is signed with Gorōzaemon mei and dated. As for NBTHK shinsa, they have quite recently put a limitation on how many swords they accept to H/TH shinsa session. It is currently at 1,600. They do run 4 Hozon/Tokubetsu Hozon blade shinsa per year so that is 6,400 swords. Then they seem to have gotten bit over 800 submissions for yearly Jūyō shinsa in recent years. Now this may sound like blasphemy coming out of low level collector like me but I believe the majority of items they process are not interesting. In general the majority of Japanese swords are not that interesting to me personally. Of course I do have quirky taste for historical swords vs. the "art sword crowd" (I personally hate to used the art sword as a term). I do think for many of the regular items NBTHK shinsa does not spend too much time on, I believe on the rare and important items they will spend more time even at Hozon level, as the sword is important. To give some idea of rarity of NBTHK ranks I believe for blades currently c. 124,000 have achieved Hozon status and c. 77,000 blades have achieved Tokubetsu Hozon status. While it would of course be amazing to have info on each and every item, I understand they just don't have time and resources to write about each uninspiring mumei blade for example.

If in Indiana, you have a local group who meets regularly. I’m sure they would be willing and eager to help. Research Indiana Token Kai. A member will also probably see this and reach out. EDIT: Also, Mark up above runs a heck of a Japanese Sword Show in Chicago every April (dates: 25-27 in 2025). An excellent opportunity to see blades in hand and learn a lot. While his reputation doesn’t need me to ‘vouch’ for him, I’ll do so anyway. One of the dealers you can trust to lead you in the right direction.

Justyn, many later TSUBA cannot be related to a specific school, as designs and techniques spread around and were widely copied. This one looks like a very late but very good TSUBA with autumn theme, probably the shape is also called MOMO GATA.

Mino kuni Masayuki with Showa stamp

Deep, deep pockets papered Yagyu tsuba https://www.jauce.com/auction/h1160862639 and a similar past auction https://www.jauce.com/auction/w1073080451 https://www.jauce.com/auction/m1160847457 Papered Yagyu but I would have guessed cast! Seams, crack or folded forge fault? Papered Ohno/Ono that sold for far less? https://www.jauce.com/auction/r1148317429 but when did Ōno suddenly become Ohno I must have missed the memo - I will stick with Sasano's spelling [ŌNO] until he tells me differently

http://www.nihontocr....com/snow_Tsuba.html

I have to say the seller with the kettle/pot guard is having trouble making up his mind just which school he thinks it belongs to. - Ono, Yagyu, Kanayama, Owari, Akasaka, Higo. This seems to cover a lot of possibilities! https://www.bakumats...1515340973&La=J#here There are 90 Yagyu designs in this "Manuscripts of Yagyu Tsuba-gata" I am sure you can copy the page images for reference - The original book is well out of copyright and the company has sold their book copy in any case. https://www.ebay.it/itm/176628474283 I don't know if this book has many tsuba images, perhaps some of the other members could comment?

https://www.lotsearc...-38922103?perPage=80 https://www.lot-art....case-30.10.17-bonham Gold-plated copper, sold for $1,875 in 2017. Small size 2 1/8in (5.3cm). It has some historic provenance but it is just plated in gold and originally French! [I like the "odd" but the price even in 2017 is out of my range - goodness knows what it would sell for now.]

Mike, It is easy. You buy some 20 to 30 related books and study them for 15 years (or more). You go looking at authentic swords in museums, exhibitions and collections. You go looking at swords at auctions and KANTEI sessions, where you can handle them. You study the subject here on the NMB. Then, when you look at a sword you like and want to buy, you can assess the school, the era of manufacture, and sometimes even the smith. Looking at pictures and guessing the age of a blade is really difficult and often, you cannot be sure. By the way, the age of a blade is not as important as its quality.

The Aoi Arts one is kodai Yagyu-- at best. I have a much better one with old green papers, that is borderline 2nd period Yagyu to early kodai (ie. late Edo) Yagyu. Condition is certainly better than the Aoi Arts one, and I would be glad to sell at that Aoi Arts price. Curran

Here is an Ohno that has been cycling on Jauce, which I am a bit suspicious of because of the surface treatment. Can’t tell if it’s just a photography issue. It looks to have been waxed, although not as jet black as some of them and some rust color is coming through. This seller does not routinely blacken his sukashi tsuba, so there is some hope. There are scratches around the seppa dai on the ura, but these could be smoothed over gently with some horn, I suppose. The dimensions are consistent with Ohno and there is the characteristic sinking of the central motif below the rim to give that powerful feeling that we experience with a dished tsuba. I think that the design is a bit stiff, but wouldn’t be a dealbreaker on its own because I like the strong and stark martial quality of this guard. https://www.jauce.com/auction/f1160853554

Hey, guys- I wanted to give a much delayed update, to close off this thread. After seeing the collective response from the community on N.M.B and having this verified by the Auctionhouse, they were happy taking back the item and to give me a full refund on this occassion. I was incredibly fortunate, for under the circumstances. Although, the experience gave me a much needed lesson on bidding on signed Nihonto, prior to doing the proper research.

They look to be Suya Shoten fittings, so there's a chance of the blade being of decent quality. Clear photos of the tang & blade are needed for any further comment.

A historically important tanto made in collaboration (gassaku) with Dr. Walter Compton, who did the hamon (performed yaki-ire). Made with the Yasukuni smith Yakuwa Yasutake. For full disclosure, this sword has a hagire (crack) likely due to this sword having been quenched by Compton. Dr. Compton was one of the most important early collectors of Japanese swords in the US and, among many activities, is best known for his return of the National Treasure Kunimune to Japan. YASUTAKE (靖武), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Tōkyō – “Yakuwa Yasutake saku” (八鍬靖武作), “Tōto ni oite Yakuwa Yasutake kore o saku” (於東都八鍬靖武造作), “Tōto-jū Yasutake” (東都住靖武), real name Yakuwa Takeshi (八鍬武), he was born December 7th 1909 in Sakegawa-mura (鮭川村) in Yamagata Prefecure, in July 1935 he moved to Kyōto to study under Ikeda Yasumitsu (池田靖光), the minister of war granted him the smith name Yasutake in 1944, from that time onwards he also became independent, it is said that after World War II, he did not forge until 1973, i.e. after a break of 28 years, he died in 1984 SOLD

Can someone please help me identify this sword? I found this in a house that I purchased along with many other WW2 items. It was in a wooden box. Trying to figure out the history and value of it. Thank you!

What about an Umetada school influence ?

I have a few of his blades on file, and few of them have been re-mounted like this one. Wonder why. Paris, Any dots at the end of the nakago?

Sold

On the subject of books, a must have for beginning collectors is "Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study", by Kazutaro Torigoye and Robert Haynes, from the "Tsuba Geijutsu-Ko" of Kazutaro Torigoye. The characteristics of Yagyu tsuba is one of the topics. More info and how to order at the the Northern California Japanese Sword Club web site. http://ncjsc.org/ncjsc_publications.htm Also Markus Sesko's website is worth a look. Free blog articles on swords and fittings plus books to order. https://markussesko.com/

Myōchin is another possibility. Either Myōchin main line, or some later artist working in Myōchin style. They did this sort of mokume (wood-grain pattern) tsuba. https://www.nipponto...swords6/TB202360.htm https://www.e-sword.jp/tsuba/1710-6011.htm https://japaneseswor...suba-signed-myochin/

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Nope, we do not prohibit that, as long as it is within reason and common sense. Pricing isn't the focus, but if it's relevant and necessary then it's allowed. We try balance the best interests of the buyer and seller.

Rob: Kanetoshi was an RJT smith, meaning some of his blades were hand made using tamahagane steel (we call these gendaito). Under a loupe or magnifier, does this mark look like a star shape? John C.

Thanks Tim! I understand what you stated in your post. “The cup shaped tsuba were influenced by the swords worn by Europeans. Anything European was exotic and fashionable in the 16th century and later.” But how the Japanese used the cup shaped tsuba on their swords is completely different than how the Europeans used that shape on their swords. When mounted, as described in my post of Nov 17, 6:48AM (and as shown in some pictures on the above posts) the bowl shape of the tsuba on a Japanese sword would face towards the sheath (saya). On a European sword the bowl shape would be facing away from the sheath. My drawing of how a Japanese sword would be with a Wangata tsuba (top of drawing) and how a European sword would be (bottom of drawing) is attached. So were the Japanese trying to emulate the European hand guards, or was it something else? If my memory serves me correctly (which is always an iffy thing!) not a lot of those Wangata type tsuba were made.

A little backstory on how I acquired this. I flip houses on the side. I found this box hidden inside of the duct run in the basement of a home. All I could see was the butt of the box. Great find! Acquired a good bit more WW2 items from this home as well.

Yes, it does seem that the quantity and quality of top-tier swords coming on the market is less than it was even a few years ago. I personally think it is cyclical and has much to do with a few new big buyers in the marketplace, and fluctuating currencies and current shinsa pass rates that make some people want to hang on their blades. There are, of course, many other contributing reasons. But I hardly think this is unusual or limited to Nihonto. My own experience is that in every corner of the art and collecting world, dealers will always offer any outstanding work that comes in off the street to their best, well-known (you can read well-heeled) customers. Providing known high rollers directly with what they are looking for saves dealers time and money photographing, cataloging, translating and otherwise promoting the piece. It is a one-click solution for them to a sale. It also keeps existing good wealthy customers happy, and increases the trust that big buyers have in those dealers. So, if you are a customer that only occasionally buys swords in the $2,000 to $10,000 range, it's crazy to expect a dealer to offer you a Tokobetsu Juyo Shizu Kanji for $175k. Why would they? So, there is truth in that many of the best pieces do not make it into the open market, whether that's in brick & mortar stores, the internet or sword shows. Up to 20 years ago, but definitely 30 to 40 years ago, there were diamonds to be found at American guns hows as the kids of GI's started cleaning out the family attic. Many of these were also run of the mill pieces but we know there were many treasures to be had for pennies if you were lucky, knowledgable or had access to reference materials, which back then were few. Often these gems were sold by folks without knowledge for a fraction of what they go for today. But if you are talking about top-tier papered blades today in outstanding condition, you are 100% correct: mere mortals will seldomly - if ever - find these on websites today, and never for what many working folks would consider a "fair price." But again, I don't see that as different from other collectible markets. And yes, Darcy was a magnet for these pieces, and you often saw them posted on his pages, though for big money. But there were also lots of blades and fittings that Darcy got that the public never saw, because they went straight to his top customers who didn't want people out there knowing about them. That said, if you know what you are looking for, and you keep your powder dry, saving your money until you find what you want, there are sometime still great pieces that land on Aoi Art, or Iidakoendo or Shoubudou or Choshuya, or Katana Hanbai or Seiyudo or several other sites. They don't hang around long and are usually offered at higher prices, not cheap but obtainable. My advice is to communicate with dealers that you trust and tell them what you are looking for. Tell them your budget. It has worked for me. Also friends in the hobby can sometimes help you if they know what you want. I have been granted on a few occasions access to swords from the estates of private collections that go straight to dealers. Doesn't happen often but it has happened and I have found pieces I would be hard pressed to find on websites for prices that were achievable for me. Like I said, it's not an everyday occurrence, but then again these artifacts don't exist in those kind of quantities to begin with.

I sell swords and kodogu online and I suppose I'm offering 3/10 to 6/10 range of quality. You need to consider that 9/10 and 10/10 items can't legally be exported from Japan; no wonder they aren't offered online to westerners. I have had and currently have swords that I consider quite fine and I'm proud to be able to offer them And, I would never try to disguise a defect; my pictures and descriptions always point them out to my customers. And I'm not the only online dealer who tries to warrant trust; there are others. I think, Lukrez, that you are being too harsh in your judgement. Thanks, Grey

Dale and Peter even exhibit modesty befitting of their expertise! You are both experts compared to me, that is for sure!

If i'm not wrong mei reads 兼道作 Kanemichi saku, that excludes Mihara school Edit :Confusion between the two swords

Hi Bruce, It might be from the Chinese sexagenary calendar: 1836 was hinoe saru - 丙申 Year of the fire tiger/ monkey. Second kanji matches, first one not so much for me so a bit of a stab in the dark.

Just above the logo of Takashimaya, there is a description about another exhibition. 第2回平櫛田中賞受賞記念　堀川恭彫刻展 – Exhibition of Horikawa Yasushi’s sculpture in commemoration of his winning of the 2nd Hirakushi Denchu Award Horikawa Yasushi won the 2nd Hirakushi Denchu Award in 1973. So, I guess the exhibition was held there in 1973. BTW, the 3rd of June was Sunday in the following years. 1973, 1979, 1984, 1990, 2001, 2007, 2012, 2018

The reading of the mei is wrong. After 備前國住長舩 (Bizen no kuni ju Osafune), the chiseled name is 源兵衛祐定 - Genbe'e Sukesada. And if the mei is genuin, chiseled name should be 源兵衛尉祐定 - Genbe'e no jo Sukesada.

Hello there ! For my next Trip to Japan i was looking for a List of Sword Shops in Japan. Last Year i've visited Tokyo for DTI, for that Trip i found that List : https://www.touken-world.jp/marketing/kanto/tokyo/13100/ On Computer i used to auto translate the Page and get that: Liste der Fachgeschäfte, die Schwerter / Homemate verkaufen 刀剣販売の専門店一覧／ホームメイト Its for whole Japan. Maybe if you didnt know it, hope it helps anybody Kind Regards

Ok, writing in a "popular style" without any actual quotes because I am lazy, generally 10% though appearing in English language literature has been corrected downwards in the past 50 years. Its a typical number for Tozama daimyo (the greatest offenders would be Uesugi with like >30%, Satsuma >20%, Mori >15% - going purely by memory) due to land confiscation but the percentage drops significantly with daimyo like Maeda (special case) and all Tokugawa retainers like lesser Mitsudaira families. The overall was closer to 5% around Genroku (it was higher at the end of Muromachi, possibly towards 15%). Out of those we subtract women and small children. Daisho is a weird thing in a sense it does appears in documents and early paintings, but then it quickly disappears from sources coming back around 1800s... So did samurai wear daisho in mid Edo is not clear to most likely negative. The samurai right per se was not wearing daisho but wearing the long sword. There are however later sources specifying daisho most likely for the reason that a "semi-samurai" like Goto family was usually given a personal right to wear a daito in court processions but were not given a right to wear it at ordinary times as a daisho would have been worn after 1800s. How many swords did an ordinary samurai had? Its a very good question and general answer is that sub-100 koku samurai (i.e. 90% of the class) from a few families studied would have literally a few blades in a household - two-four waki, two-four daito. Generally the ratio of 1.5 daito per adult samurai appears plausible. Upper ranks would either be "mini-Daimyo" which is hatamoto in case of Tokugawa or similar class for Tozama with 1500-5000 koku, but they would have a large samurai retinue of their own. The "working samurai" ceiling is closer to either 150-200 koku level or the maximum of 500 koku which would be the top executive for a major Daimyo family. They would however have subservient families to pay as well... Overall "collections" of hundreds of blades start at Daimyo level and everything at and above Rai Kunimitsu cutdown waki is priced outside working bushi... Which we also see in gifts since even such "lesser" blade per modern higher end collector would in fact be a typical level of a Shogun's gift to a hakamoto in charge of a major project. Going back to numbers... Tokugawa parade in Kyoto had a roaster of more than 450,000 samurai participants which should be close to every single adult samurai who could be mustered. the total number was probably closer to 600,000. Funny enough procession required new gear but obviously we see no evidence of hundreds of thousands koshirae ordered in one year... So we have a total of about 1,000,000 daito, and possibly lesser number of wakizashi (there is no setting requiring one to wear wakizashi and not say tanto so in case of need wakizashi was not needed at all)... which is however compensated by wealthier peasants having considerable supplies of yari and naginata and merchants/wealthier peasants having wakizashi as well. So much wording and different method of calculation still arrives at the same number of about 2,500,000 swords...

Not to be overlooked is a rather obscure comment made by Akira Komiya. 額縁 Gakubuchi Sword tassel - genuine or reproduction?

Soft toothbrush and isopropyl alcohol? I don't think it will affect the patina or inlays. But check first.

There is an interesting article on cleaning Iron guards here: http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/tsuba/tsubacln.htm I am not sure I would agree with "NEVER clean the inside of the sukashi". One of mine had a piece of rock wedged in a cavity that obviously wasn't there as decoration and other greasy objects that blocked up other undercutting - I can't see the retention of this adding any cultural or aesthetic value.

Nice Tsuba just got nicer.

Good luck Pippo! It's a looooooong term project. Don't try and do it all at once. Worry at it whenever you feel like it. Take plenty of breaks. It's much slower than watching paint dry. Take before shots, and then a month later, intermediate shots, and so on!

wash it with a mild soap and took a medium toothbrusch. After that dry it and oil it with chiji oil. In some days took a soft cotton towel and rub it smoothly or wear it in your jacket. Oil it again. Do this again and again and the rust goes away. You need slightly a year but you get a very deep and nice brown color. It takes time. Don't hurry. When you boil it i fear the last gold is away.