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I think it is probably time to offer an explanation of what was behind the original post and I am grateful to Brian for suggesting people select their first pick up. It helped illustrate the point I was hoping to make. The majority of participants selected no.4 as their first preference with no.3 coming in close behind. No.4 has been taken to a number of exhibitions and study days for people to examine. Sitting alongside other pieces it has been largely ignored. It is very conservative, the hada is not immediately visible and the complexity of the hamon needs close study. As a result people tended to leave it on the table and gravitate to the larger and more flamboyant pieces that were also on show. However when restricted to focusing on shape something people saw in no.4 drew them to it. The somewhat laboured point I am trying to make is that we should, as Walter Compton said in his 100 masterpiece volume, look at shape before we look at anything else. I still maintain that regardless of whether it is ubu or suriage a good sword will never have a bad shape. Once we have studied the shape move on to the other features that can tell us a great deal more. For those who want to know what they were looking at: 1. A mumei shin-shinto piece attributed to Aizo Tadamasa by the NTHK 2. O-suriage katana with old NBTHK papers to Daido. I think this falls in to what Darcy so eloquently described as a typical "bucket attribution" . it could be the work of a number of smiths and Daido was a safe choice. 3. Has a shumei and sayagaki attributing it to Aoe Tsunetsugu. The NBTHK Juyo papers from the 13th session attributed to Aoe and dated it to the late Kamakura period. Interestingly they do not describe it as having O-kissaki leaving it at extended chu-kissaki. They also mention the shumei but state that this does not refer to the Ko-Aoe master of that name. 4. This blade has three separate attributions to the same smith Awataguchi Norikuni who was working in 1220 and one of Go-Toba resident smiths. It has Hozon papers and as far as I am aware it has never been submitted for higher papers. It does however have a sayagaki by Tanobe Sensei in which he describes it as "A masterpiece of the Kamakura period". Awataguchi work is not common Norikuni's pieces are rare and highly regarded I think at the last count there were seven of his blades awarded Juyo certification and four of those were tanto. There is one national treasure piece which is suriage but retains the mei. This piece has a great many similarities to that work. This is amongst the finest examples of sword making I have had the opportunity to study in the past 40 years. However it requires time to look and appreciate it. looking at the shape first and in detail gives the observer that little extra time to start to see the detail.

Love the question! I was 11 years old.. Thank god I didn’t do anything stupid with it at that age It belonged to my grandfather. The story of how he got it, is lost. Every time I would visit, I would ask to see it. He was pretty grumpy, and only occasionally agreed to show it to me. Anyway, he had a stroke, and I think he knew he was going to pass; because while visiting a couple weeks before my birthday, he decided to give it to me. He was only 73 and I was turning 11, and my parents shocked looks were priceless Anyway, after many lectures about the responsibility of owning a weapon. I took it home with me. He passed away a week later, RIP. Fast forward ~20 years, I take interest in it, post it here, and send it off to Ted for ID. He tells me its genuine, and early Shinto mino! I didn’t even know it was real for those 20 years. Nothing particularly valuable, but very special to me. Cheers, -Sam

The Awataguchi is the superb blade clearly - not just because of the name but due the very graceful sugata. I also prefer old blades and emphatic curvature and my modest collection has mostly such blades. That was the whole purpose of the post - not to opine on quality or polish etc as that is not particularly visible here but focus on proportions. The proportions plus curvature make it stand out. Thank you Paul for posting this mental exercise.

So, indeed shape is one of the first aspects that grab us, probably followed by proportions etc. But sometimes it might be misleading as to dating the blade. Paul’s Oei Yasumitsu is a case in point as it is shaped like an earlier sword. I attach an image of an early Kamakura kodachi, which typically people could probably not guess dates to 1245-1250 by looking at the sugata. Yet it is ubu or very nearly ubu. While the shape is not one of those curvaceous beauties, the sword’s hataraki and other activities more than make up for what the sugata does not offer.

Great exercise Paul, has really been informative. Would love to see more of this sort of post, as it doesn't even cross over to that touchy subject of online kantei, but more of "gut feel" and what attracts us initially. More like this would be wonderful, and even more discussion in this particular thread. Really fun. Now when it comes to wakizashi...this gets even more tricky.

In about 1970 when I was 15 years old I owned a few non Japanese swords . Each month I would attend the Antique Arms Collectors Guild meeting at the Hawthorn Band rooms . There was a signed Japanese blade in a gunto saya on sale for Eight dollars . That price was way too high . Each month the asking price would come down by a dollar and when it got to five dollars I bought it ( from underneath my good friend Barry Thomas's nose ) . I couldn't read the mei at the time but later was able to read it as Tojiro Hisakuni a famous koto maker . Gimei ,I am sure ,although one Japanese who saw it was pretty keen on it . It is something that I still own . Ian Brooks

I was 24, living in London for my first corporate job. There was a little store near Camden Lock close to where I lived that sold Japanese prints and art. There was an o-suriage wakizashi on the shelf above the cash register. I was shocked to learn it was a real samurai sword and had to have it. The owner joked that I must be very savvy to buy a blade without a signature because it could be a treasure! It's wasn't, but I was thrilled. He sold it to me along with a copy of John Yamato's book. The infection set in almost immediately and it wasn't long before I was at Sotheby's for every Japanese sword auction they had. I was poor back then but I ended up buying my first signed piece with koshirae soon after: a ko-wakizashi by Hida no kami Ujifusa. Now, 40 years later, I still have that blade and many tens of thousands of dollars less because of this hobby. Don't regret a single minute. Thanks for making me walk down memory lane.

was 14 bailing hay, was paid with a sword and a flight leather suit ...but then he charged me for lunch was a Stainless Steel sword naval but thought i had the world ! Fred

All I wanted to Thank Fred W for putting on another great SF show, he always does such a great job! And having the NBTHK-AB to do the Bizen display which the club pays for the room, we bring the blades, it really was an incredible display of Shinshinto display of 600 to 700 year old blades, if you looked at the swords you know what I mean if not you missed a huge one! Was great to see everyone again and what a great crowd on Saturday Also HUGE thanks to Bill R for the ride to the airport not for him we would have missed our flight, thanks for being such a great friend. Fred Geyer

I was aware of Japanese swords my entire life as my father had brought home several from WWll as a young 11th airborne paratrooper. However, my first personally purchased sword was a Sadakatsu Shin Gunto purchased at an antique show. I was in my late 20's.

Just as a final piece I think I'd feel a little guilty talking about shape if I didn't include the example below. It is Ubu, exhibits fumbari and has one of the smallest ko-kissaki I have seen on a tachi. I think it is stunningly beautiful

Antique Japanese art metalwork disc.

I must say this thread has been an enjoyable and educational read. Coming into the thread I would never have thought a tsuba like this one was authentic. The idea that an oddly shaped tsuba like this one could have been authentic and modified in such a significant way never even crossed my mind.

I am not sure how to respond Kirill. I mentioned in the original post that shape was the feature that originally attracted or deterred me. Whether ubu or suriage the shape has to have some aesthetic quality that appeals to me and what appeals to me may not appeal to you (as it obviously doesn't). I di not suggest that these were examples of A+ sugata although thankfully in at least two cases the NBTHK think they are. The piece you suggest might be bought fishing at sword shows has been described as " A masterwork of the Kamakura period" Theblade you decxribe as a traumatized Chogi received Juyo papers and has a sayagaki by Honami Kozon both describing the blade as "despite being suriage having a typical shape of the period" It is of course incredibly difficult to make a judgement based on a single image (B&W or otherwise) and this is made more difficult without any suggestions of size. This wasn't the purpose of the post.

I think I was 26 or 27, it was a wakisashi attributed to Kongobey Moritaka in red urushi meï.... I offer it as a gift to a 10th dan hanshi who was my friend and master. He died 10 years ago. Best regards, Éric VD

東北遺物展覧會 – Relics in the northeast Exhibition 記念帖 – Commemorative book (The exhibition was held for the relics of daimyos in the northeast district.) 温故知新 – Learning new things from the past. 昭和三年秋 – Showa 3rd year, autumn 伯爵伊達興宗 – Count Date Okimune

There is indeed amazing stories here. And thank you Rick B reminding us there was a nearly similar topic So far the average age is 28 years old with 17 collectors

In various presentations and articles I have often quoted many expert voices telling us the importance of shape and how it can tell us a great deal about a blade. I believe this to be true but for some reason have only just realised how much it influences my ideas regarding the desirability of a sword. On reflection I believe that in every case it has been the shape of a blade that has first grabbed my attention. If the shape looks good carry on looking if not walk away. I hasten to add this is not based on any criteria other than aesthetic appeal. I have posted an image below of a number of different blades, all are suriage so attempting to date them based on shape becomes immediately more challenging. They are very different but all caused me to stop and look in more detail.

I always use "Metal Craft" to avoid any misunderstanding and deflect overzealous custom reaction... Regards Luca

I was 24. A single father of 2 boys that was lucky to have 2 pennies to rub together on good days. (their mom left us and dissappeared for years...party girl) I saw a gunto saya on a shelf at an antique mall. I grabbed it and out fell a broken piece of a Showato katana. Signed Noshu Seki Jyu Fujiwara Kanefusa. The seller wanted $75 for both, but would sell me the broken katana for $30. I didn't have enough money for both, so I got the broken katana. To me, at that time, I felt like I hit the lottery! Over a period of 6 months, the same guy sold me a decent Showa period civilian tsuka for $25. It only needed minor filing on the inside to fit. I later found a matching civilian tsuba that matched the fittings on the tsuka for $35. Working as an apprentice machinist, I was able to carefully grind a new kissaki onto the broken blade. End product looked decent. I took the newly re-fitted katana, now a wakizashi, to the Show of Shows in Lousiville, Kentucky in February of 1995 and quicky found a cheap $25 saya for it. Altogether I had $115 into it. A guy offered me $400 for it and I thought I hit the lottery again! Good times!

What Brian said. The Customs People don't have either time or ability to think. If labeled "XYZ" and the system says "XYZ is bad", you're out and there is very little chance human face to face logic will change it these days. In conclusion: control how it is labelled when sent. When tsuba mailing to shinsa in Japan.... don't call them sword guards. Do as Brian said. ...and apparently Belgium is the same way. I love that Sweden is fine with swords and you can say most anything with it sailing through. Even the USA isn't that relaxed. Mention of 'sword' with declared value, and your chances of it disappearing in LAX or Chicago customs gets much higher.

Crickey I just realised I was 27 when I bought my first sword, which I kept for about 14 years. Means I've been collecting for over 42 years now!

Lewis, I use this as an example of "shape doesn't tell you how old a sword is but it can tell you how young". This is trying very hard to be a Heian/ early Kamakura period work but it was actually made about 200 years later in the Oei period. There was no attempt to deceive by the smith he signed it with his own name, Yasumitsu. The shodai was working in the Oei period at a time when the incumbent Shogun was attempting to move away from what he perceived as the excesses of the Nambokucho period and attempted to return to the more subtle forms of the early Kamakura. I do think the shape really does illustrate what first attracted me to Japanese swords there is a severe elegance that I am challenged to describe in a meaningful way but that really grabs my attention.

Paul, thanks for this thread. Most of us took it as intended. Not as an online Kantei but as a simple question…”which shapes appeal to our eyes” and most answers addressed it accordingly. Brians suggestion to pick most vs least appealing added an extra enjoyable perspective. It made me look and think focussing not on who/where/when/what but simply on what my personal taste is. Great fun with no risk of making a twit of oneself! Many thanks. Colin

I started late, age 59. Dad died and I got his Mantetsu and got hooked. Now to your title's question, my first nihonto came when I was looking to add an nice kaigunto to my collection. A dealer was selling a beat-up, bedraggled one, but I went ahead and bought it as it had a Fujiwara mon, a decent leather cover, sharkskin saya cover (though bad shape) and the coup-de-grace - a Muromachi era blade. I later did find a great looking kai, but that old one was my first nihonto.

Excellent,then my learning Tsuba has served its purpose.

Nice pre-WWII mounts with seldom seen black lacquered Army Saya. Some have hypothesized that this has a connection to the Special Naval Landing Force, the Kikusui-To on the Habaki may offer some support to this.

I was 18 or 19, a copper hilted NCO's katana, bought from Rob Taylor when he was in Queens Road, Peckham. Price £65 ! Though I started collecting edged weapons when I was just six, and when I couldn't obtain anything new for my collection, I read everything that I could find on the subject.Though I was already fascinated by Japanese history and culture, I quickly realised that Japanese weapons were the ultimate edged weapons, and they became a sort of obsession, and I'd even get books just because they had a picture of a Japanese sword in it!

I was 58 in 2021. A Hozon Kaneharu Sunnobi Tanto. I am still very new to the hobby and have a lot to learn. Now that I am retired, I have time to learn but very little money to spend on new swords.

When I was about 19, I was working a summer job for my former high school history teacher. He learned that I collected militaria. One day near the end of my shift, he explained that he had a Japanese sword and a German rifle in his garage that had been there for decades. Long before I went to high school, a tornado destroyed the old high school. He said the sword and the rifle had been on display in the school at the time (clearly times have changed) and no one came to claim them after the tornado. So he took them home and they sat in his garage. He decided to give them to me. I did not know anything about the sword, so I took it to a local militaria dealer who explained that it was a traditionally made blade predating the war but in military mounts. It was in rough condition—tired from too many polishes and it probably had been used to hack something by the soldier who brought it to the US. I later traded it for a nice Luftwaffe gravity knife that I still have. I still have the rifle—a matching Mauser K98. It took another 30 years before I acquired another nihonto.

Hello, After about a years lurking here and reading a lot, I finally decided to subscribe, I wanted to thanks the amazing dynamism of this forum and the work of Brian. your way of supporting the field of interest is the gentleman's way. And a subscription is worth buying few books. That said I bought the books as well. I'm a very beginner so i'll inevitably say stupid things in future posts. But the hobby is complex and exciting so I'll try. I'm so sad not having discovered it sooner. My interest began after a family travel in Japan a year ago. the purchase of a iaito that brought me to a koryu then to nihonto. All in a few month. I own three blade : an awful first purchase I paid to much (but I don't regret it), a cheap (maybe) mumei blade that I like pretty much (discussed here), and a middle range NBTHK TH shinto blade I love. I'm waiting for a fourth one, a TH koto blade. Oh and I will often apologize with my english for that I'm very unsecure. Please forgive my typos Regards Benjamin

3rd for most-liked (because it is unlike any of my other swords). 4th for least-liked. Well, it's not that I don't like it, its just it is similar to one of my swords. So the other ones feel more interesting to me.

Have to agree, the shape, and symmetry all play one of the most important roles when I first see a sword. Awkward shape or curvature immediately takes it down a notch for me. This is way more than just the curve or length. The proportions and how it tapers all can add extra interest. Let's say someone saw the 4 swords above lying on a table, let's have a quick poll on which one (1 at the top) would you pick up first, before you looked at all the other factors?

1 difficult to find Japanese model 1883 Naval Kyu-Gunto Samurai Officer's sword. This rare Imperial Japanese Navy Officer's katana would make an important addition to any collection. A sword in model 1883 Naval Kyu-Gunto sword mounts is rare. An example in exceptional condition is extremely difficult to find. The Naval mounts on this sword are mint. Of Kyu-Gunto mounted swords--just 1 in 40, or 1 in 50 is in Naval mounts--all others are Army. A sword like this does not come on the market very often. These Naval mounts are often also referred to as Russo-Japanese War mounts. A photo from a reference book of a Japanese Naval Officer posing with this type of sword is provided in this listing. This sword has a Silver Samurai family mon on its backstrap. This sword has an ancestral Samurai blade. The blade dates to the 1644 to 1648 A.D. The nakago/tang is signed 'Hoshu Takada-ju Fujiwara Munekage'. Munekage is ranked a 30 pt. smith in Hawley's--making him a chujo-saku swordsmith. The blade measures 25 13/16" (65.5 cm) from blade tip to notch in the blade spine. This sword has a beautiful hamon. This old blade has two holes in the nakago. The sharkskin-covered saya is very fine. All fittings are gilted in gold. The original Naval tassel/portopee is attached. The blade even has desirable kiri komi--(sword cuts or strikes from battle with another Samurai). This sword is papered. The papers accompany this sword. Condition: The mounts are in mint condition. The blade is in perfect polish. The hamon and boshi are perfectly healthy. $5699.95 shipped within the U.S. (if paying via Paypal or credit card, the PP/credit card fee will be added to the price)

Think id go with something similar. Japanese iron artwork metal craft, Japanese copper artwork metal craft. Ps, From recent experience i heard about with a Japanese dealer. You really need to make every effort to get things done the way you want, otherwise they go autopilot and do everything the same way they have always done.

I was 25. I had a quiet interest in Gunto because my uncle had brought one home from WWII (good sword - unsigned gendaito). It was probably due to my uncle's sword that I bought a very ordinary showato I happened to notice in an antique shop in Bournemouth in Dorset, UK (I was living nearby in Lymington, Hampshire). I brought it home when I returned to Australia in Sept. 1973 and as I gained more knowledge of Japanese swords I passed it on to concentrate on better swords...so that was 50 years ago and I am 76 this year...time flies when you are having fun.

26, a long long time ago.

We will be attending the Sydney knife show. Looking forward to catching up with our Sydney friends this weekend John & Kristie

Hi Paris, I notice the "explorative" drill hole has started to darken up and gain some patina since Okan had it, we won't ever know why it was drilled but it will always be another intriguing mystery about this guard, the speed in which it has changed colour would suggest it was drilled not that long before Okan had it?

So wait... Going back to this as it might be hard to tell from the original photo Zanilu, is the brass inlay elevated above the surface of the base plate? It doesn't appear to be from the photo but only the owner could tell for sure.

mint condition, the book edges are gilded......... rare book find from Berlin

Third time's the charm? Link below to my previous response. I was about 46 years old at the time. https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/34699-my-first-sword-and-where-it-led-me-your-story/#comment-359514 And yes, I still have the tanto.

I did my own research at the time but couldn't find any useful information to trace it back.

Hi guys, Someone bought a tsuba from me at the show and didn't get the Hozon paper that belongs with it (Mumei Kodai Higo). If this is you please send me an email with a picture of your tsuba and your address; I'll send the paper. Thanks, Grey Doffin gdoffin at gmail.com

4 1st 1 last

Thomas, I think, definitely yes. In EDO JIDAI, they had many rules that had to be followed. If it is correct that merchants were the only ones besides the SAMURAI (who had to carry a DAISHO or at least two swords) to be allowed to carry a WAKIZASHI in public, you can assume that they wanted to show their wealth and good taste with an outstanding and sometimes even flamboyant KOSHIRAE. Having a precious collection at home wouldn't have impressed anyone - non-family members or friends were very rarely allowed to see the house from the inside! As far as swords are concerned, the main difference between a merchant and a SAMURAI was probably a spiritual one. While SAMURAI followed BUSHIDO rules and were very much attached to their swords, merchants very likely had a different approach. Their main objective was to represent what they could afford, and KOSHIRAE or swords might have been interchangeable from time to time. Besides all expressions of individual taste and court rules, SAMURAI often had a more functional view as we see in many rather modest KOSHIRAE. Of course, there were also some rich SAMURAI and DAIMYO with important swords in their OBI, but these are not numerous.

Still for the price, a nice sword in good polish. Best, Éric

"I'm not looking to start an extensive collection" Famous last words.

@Franco D They certainly sound like wood when tapped, and look like wood in person (perhaps with a varnish of some kind on?) - admittedly the lighting isn't great in my previous pictures, so this is what it looks with natural light: And then some close ups (again with poor lighting): Is there a more definitive, non-destructive test I can take?

I can help. Here is a minty Ikeda Yasumitsu for your consideration. We also have Yasuhiro and Yasuyoshi.