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Let’s do the reveal! As I said earlier, please cut me some slack – its easy to act as sensei when one runs the kantei and has all the cards, but still explanations should be given – and they should come with an exclamation its just a personal opinion. There are a few ways to judge this blade. Sugata locks you into either Kamakura-earliest Nambokucho or very late Nambokucho-early Muromachi. In hand the lack of niku and the balance point suggests Kamakura, but this is subjective. Its heavily nie-based so its either Yamato or Soshu, with some exceptions. The coarse jigane in shinogi-ji comes up as very long lines, and that’s a sign there is long masame there as well. Lets go Yamato route, its easier and faster. Possibility 1: Not much comparable in early Muromachi, so accept the notion its Kamakura. Kamakura Yamato by definition should be first and foremost considered as Senjuin. Possibility 2: Its Yamato with midareba. By definition it can only be Senjuin. That’s actually what the sayagaki argues. It can be added that nioi choji-like midare in Yamato is also exclusive Senjuin traits. Lets go Soshu route, its also fun. It does look like Satsuma, but nioi-guchi is seldom Satsuma’s strong point, it tends not to do nioi based midareba covered by nie and sugata is quite off. But its an important note, because Satsuma was particularly inspired by Go and Norishige. In the same way if we would say its Horikawa, we mean it looks like Sadamune. We can also right away check that nie 1cm wide and 20cm long endulating “belt” is either Yamato Shizu or Etchu, its Extremely uncommon everywhere else. So in Soshu route there are not that many practicing first class tight itame (often referred to as Awataguchi hada) with bright broad nioi-guchi and nioi/ko-nie hamon covered by nie towards habuchi. Most Kamakura lineage is strictly nie based, for example. The three options here are Sa, Naotsuna and Go. Some Mino Kanenobu are nioi based but nioi-guchi is weak and jigane is large featured. Naotsuna tends to have large featured jigane, more mokume. Sa is a good option, I felt. His itame hada is excellent, but he did not do much masame-nagare and ara nie away from hamon is uncommon. If you look at his kinsuji you don’t really see transition to masame. In fact, Awataguchi hada with nagare, bright broad nioi-guchi and nioi/ko-nie hamon covered by nie towards habuchi, plenty of ara nie and occasional use of “nie belts” in Etchu fashion is a textbook definition of Go. You can find the exact wording more or less in “Connoseurs”. Re: Nabeshima Go meito and many other examples. So what’s wrong with calling it a Go? First the boshi is not typical for Soshu, Go’s in particular tends to be much wider, its can be called “yakitsume” but its wide. Sugata is a bit different, the sori is larger, the tapering is larger than what you usually see with Go. There is arguably stronger presence of masame-nagare, nie within the hamon forms really nice clouds, but overall its presence is more… sort of “stout”. It has substantially more Yamato character to it. Here one can remember that there Senjuin Yoshihiro smiths from Echizen province, with signed examples, and Go Yoshihiro is often considered to be one of them. So the commentary of Honami Koson (which might be my confirmation bias, I really need to study the issue much more!) was that its Kamakura period’s Senjuin Yoshihiro, possibly the father of Go. This in turn should bring us to the question – what is the so called Senjuin school? As I mentioned, its not advised to be placed in judged competition except Ryumon Nobuyoshi. The attribution to particular names is impossible; there have been attempts to write up different subschools but they all run into problems that there are plenty of nijimei examples which are papered Senjuin but which are not consistent namewise with “Shigehiro school” etc. Its also largely attributed in a negative fashion: really old blade with Yamato features which is not Yasutsuna or Kyushu-mono. How did we come to this? To an extent we have to thank the “five Yamato traditions” for that. When the classification was created Tegai Kanenaga and Hosho smiths were considered almost mid-Kamakura, and Taima was also referenced in Kamakura genealogies. When it became apparent that Taima, Shikkake and Hosho were very short lived, Tegai did not really begin until 1300 – still the “five traditions” were kept. So you have a bizarre case that Yamato Shizu is not considered a mainline, while Taima does. Even more bizarre case is that while every Soshu tradition is “shadowed” by its Yamato counterpart, all of these counterparts actually can be found in Kamakura period’s Senjuin examples. Here is mid Kamakura “proto-Taima” in tight itame with nie splashed all over. The quality varies, but towards 1270-1310 you start seeing extremely high end Senjuin. Awataguchi hada, nie laced throughout; the best ones do tend to come to old attributions to Echizen Masters like Go and Norishige. But they are different: the forging style can vary a lot within the blade, more comfortable with pure masame sections, more comfortable with chouji midareba or nioi ko chouji based hamon. The signatures are sadly lacking, but it can be ascertained as Echizen Senjuin – a precursor to Echizen Soshu.

Elitism There is a huge difference between saying “I only LIKE the best 10 smiths” (and by default “so should you”) and “I KNOW jack about those 10 smiths”… or anything else for that matter. I’ve met many people who have money and claim to like the best (of whatever… cars, wine, etc.) only because they could afford it, not because they knew or appreciated anything about it. And I’ve met people who ‘claim’ to like the best of everything because they think that is what they should say to impress people. You can never be wrong with that claim and you can even pretend to ‘hang with’ the ‘right crowd’ based only on your words. I’ve also met many people who can enjoy the best of everything, graciously share some of that experience with others, are grateful for their ability to have all that, and still treat others who don’t have all that with respect and dignity. Rare maybe?

I was looking at chū-saku smiths (the lowest Fujishiro rank) at Jūyō and there are few that have made it (most have not made it). I excluded lineages that have higher ranked smith generations as I can't check every item specifically and most likely items passing in those cases are work of more famous generation. Yoshii Kiyonori - 9 blades Niō Kiyosada - 2 blades Kai-Mihara Masamori - 1 blade Kanabō Masatsugu - 4 blades Shimada Motosuke - 3 blades Bungo Munekage - 1 blade Terushige - 3 blades Ujishige - 1 blade Of course there are lots of smiths that are not ranked in Fujishiro too. As Jūyō swords are well past 10,000 items I think they can have a sword or 2 from even lesser ranked smiths perhaps representing the top tier of their work. But the correlation between Fujishiro rank and Jūyō is a good one to think about, I admit I haven't really thought about it before.

I own a daisho, the daito of which has a nagasa of only 52cm and a tang that appears to be ubu with a single mekugi ana. I queried this via a Japanese resident who asked his sword teacher's opinion. The answer given was that it probably belonged to a person of small stature. A person carried and used a sword they were comfortable with and they trained to fight with. [ Being a skeptic, I also tend to think that quite a few daisho probably started life in the Meiji era to supply the demands of the tourist trade. There were plenty of sayamakishi, blades and sword fittings around that could be picked up and turned into a desirable item to sell at a higher price than two disparate swords. ] There is also the matter of period when it comes to blade length. Another of my swords has a blade by Bizen Osafune Saemonjo Norimitsu dated 1468. That is again ubu and has a nagasa of 60.5cm. This however is an uchigatana or katate uchi to, a sword designed specifically for use with one hand. Can we get too hung up on definitions of length? Ian Bottomley

Paz, many are bitten by the "koto bug", including myself. However, I have kept most of my great shinto and shinshinto blades (mostly signed, ubu, polished, papered and obtained in need of restoration from ebay over the last two plus decades), and just been adding koto blades to the collection. My frustration with koto blades is the huge emphasis on kantei, since so many of these swords are osuriage. That puts collectors often in the position of buying, for high prices, mumei (osuriage) blades with high level papers to makers that the shinsa team chose. In many cases, we are paying huge prices just for the papers on swords lacking a signature. Since I have bought many of my koto blades on ebay or at shows and had them restored, I have to say that I have several that have gotten two, three or even four different attributions. I don't share your sense of koto superiority - shinto and shinshinto blades are wonderful, are often great examples of the pinnacle of Edo period sword making and can be found in perfect, near-mint condition, as they were when new. Also, the imagination of swords as art fluorished during the shinto period and later, and there are many schools that produced magnificent pieces of sword art. Many of these, e.g. Kiyomaro, command prices at or exceeding the prices brought by many of the koto masters. The path you have taken is very common and perfectly normal, though it need not be accompanied by a loss of affection for shinto swords. I have found some very nice koto blades and love owning and restoring them, but I love my Edo period swords as well.

Don't think this one has been posted here. Comes from this Gunboards Vintage Pics thread.

Hi John, 大和大掾藤原氏重 - Yamato Daijo Fujiwara Ujishige. There were three generations of smith with this name and title and their work periods are as follows. From Sesko's Compendium: Ujishige (氏重), 1st gen., Manji (万治, 1658-1661), Harima Ujishige (氏重), 2nd gen., Genroku (元禄, 1688-1704), Harima Ujishige (氏重), 3rd gen., Genbun (元文, 1736-1741), Harima

When one relies upon others’ judgements to declare himself elitist, problems arise…. As it has been said blades must been judged according their own merits, independently of the smiths. It is what experts do for o suriage or mumei blades in Shinsa. Quality then determine the level of the kanteisho. A blade by a Rai smith, be his level saijo saku, may never reach Juyo level. The sword makes the smith and not the opposite.

Thanks Jussi, it's very instructive. I didn't think that Masatsugu could get a juyo although he is really talented, the attached omi yari has absolutely no defect and shows quality (rare thing for a 71cm yari)

The way the eyes line up - giving each other a good nasty stare? [Well Florian, if it comes to it - Who has seen a real Dragon?]

I thought the whole point of "art" was to be able to look at it and understand it and appreciate it for oneself, without influence. Some folk live within the confines of books and outdated opinions and expect others to follow suit. In that respect, they become narrow minded and cheat themselves. These people never think outside the boundaries and never progress to teach others anything new. Same old ,,,,,,,, Boring really, Thank God some folk seek out new ideas.

Reading the full Wikipedia article solves the case I think, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beiyang_government The Japanese had poor relations with the new KMT one-party state in Nanjing. When the Japanese created the separatist Manchukuo in 1932, the new country used Beiyang symbolism.

That sounds more like technocratic: if you mean deferring to specialists and their data/judgment. Which makes sense, follow the facts and the people trained to collect and interpret. But there is also a kind of inappropriate appeal to authority: "wealth, power, notability" are not a proxy for expertise or having data and many times I’ve seen people make the mistake of trusting a celebrity or business magnate on something unconnected to their field. Someone might be an entertaining celebrity or fashionable executive but they might not know a thing about how vaccines work. Trusting a shinsa seems like the good kind of deferring to experts: they have a lifetime of looking at data and analyzing while I don’t so sure, while I try to study and get better it’s important I get my guesses checked by experts. On the other hand I won’t be taking surgery from a tech ceo or tv commentator.

Japanese swordsmith apprenticeship is advertised with five day weeks for five years with no pay | Daily Mail Online This highlights the long road ahead and the sacrifices required to becoming a smith.

Retempering is carried out when the hamon is lost due to fire damage

There may be other factors for a sword to go Juyo but if we accept that the workmanship has to be there then this is enough of a sample for me to accept that a Chujo-saku smith can indeed have a really good day! And the statement stands. -tch

I have seen a Juyo Senjuin that had a sayagaki to Norishige. There are a few areas that appear to have matsukawa hada.

Marugata suemon?

It has been very fun thread. I must admit I wouldn't have guessed Senjuin as I would have expected bit "rougher". Of course the tips with dealer hinting it as early-mid Kamakura and one smith (Nobuyoshi) being featured are now easy to see after knowing the result. I agree that Senjuin has slight "problems" as work by them (and attributed to Senjuin) span from earliest work seen as being from late Heian period up to end of Nanbokuchō. So there is a lot of ground to be covered. For Senjuin Yoshihiro I have 2 dated swords a tachi from 1358 and tantō from 1353. I know there are possibly items from 1340's by him but I have not yet seen pictures of them in references. But perhaps Honami have had different info on him. I enjoyed this a lot, very tricky one

Same, have only seen one Fuji hamon in real life and it was on a short wakizashi but didn't have the moon. I think the moon really makes it. Could be a sun too, the art leaves it for interpretation!

Ed, This is one of the 8,000+ souvenir swords made by the Tenshozan factory of the Toyokawa Navy Arsenal, after the war. You can read all about this on this document: John, are you saying that Mitsunaga worked for, and made this blade, at the Seki Kaji Tosho? If so, this would add evidence to the idea that Tenzoshan was using available surplus blades, and therefore, this blade was really made for the war.

In fact, the tests themselves are worthless because of too much bias. On the other hand it is interesting because it gives us information about the state of mind of the samurai of that time

Before I go gently into that good night... Our next public meeting is on Saturday, August 13th at 10 A.M. We will be meeting again at the Morgan County Public Library in Martinsville, IN. The topic for this meeting is "Best of the Collections" and will feature some nice blades including a Senjuin Tachi, Yamato Ken, and a Kiyomitsu Katana! If you have questions, please reach out to me for information on how to attend or if you have questions! And of course, if any of you gentlemen on the board would like to come, we'd more than love that!

光永作 (Mitsunaga Saku) 野口 平 一 a Seki Kaji Tosho. This is a stainless steel blade. The canvas wrap isn't anything to be concerned about, there were many Samegawa alternatives used in the last years of the war.

Khalid, there are many different ways that the end of the nakago are finished on osuriage swords. This by itself is not indicative that the blade is a tachi. Whether the blade was once a tachi is better determined based on what the blade itself is (when it was made).

It seems likely the Beiyang government ordered these from Japan.

Elitism and technocracy are arguably not the same as you can have wealthy and powerful without competence and competence without wealth - Kiyomaro comes to mind. That is why I find it a strange term to chose. Indeed but we are talking about analysis aren’t we? And so yes I will gladly read what the experts say and try to think of why they came to their conclusions. I will take an old sword that was once sent as sankin kotai gift as Masmune with a grain of salt if the experts have since given a thumbs down. I completely agree with respect, with trying to understand the culture that made an artifact, and maybe seeing what made it superficially and socially pass as a masmune, I just won’t think it one…

The beiyang government looks correct. The Wikipedia page shows the same symbol that shows up on the sword. It's interesting that the Japanese kyu gunto and the Republic of China sword are so similar. I'm more curious now to know what kind of blade is inside. The auction states there is a 1400s era blade signed Suyekun, but they didn't expose the tang to confirm.

I'm not making an argument for elitism, or seeking to engage in a philosophical discussion, just defining terms to see if there's an alternative definition being used by others here; as I don't follow the meaning of a few posts. Elitism could result in technocracy, but elitism is more general and can take many forms. Historically elitism has often been related to social class, with monarchy being supported by elitist doctrines such as the divine right of kings (i.e. that kings derived their authority from God and could not therefore be held accountable for their actions by any earthly authority, such as a parliament). Elitism is basically the belief that all opinions are not equal, and that the opinions of certain groups are more meaningful than others (regardless of the grounds for thinking that). Some may believe that the views expressed by their religious leaders carry especially high weight, others may believe that the views expressed by (relevant) academics carry especially high weight, others may believe that the views of the elderly carry especially high weight, etc; anyone who believes that the input of one particular group is likely to be more constructive than the input of another can be considered to be elitist. This is diametrically opposed to direct democracy (as in the case of an anonymous referendum for instance) where every vote carries the same weight irrespective of the expertise, social status, etc of the person casting the vote. There are philosophical arguments for elitism on almost any grounds, and this has been fertile ground for discussion for millennia. There's plenty of arguments for authority being respected on the grounds of wealth, power and notability. As this forum is devoted to Japanese swords, I'd maybe suggest Japanese history as a source for why it has often been necessary to respect the wealthy, powerful, notable, etc and to hold them in the very highest esteem.

For OP to add a little on the why. In regards to length. The longer a work the more difficult it is for the smith to control forging conditions and thus be able to make flawless blades. On ubu nagako, part of the reason is that many swords have had their form changed in order to meet changing fighting conditions. Mainly for swords forged after the start of the Edo period, this practice of shortening swords happens less frequently but besides having say an original painting or a restored cutout of a famous painting, one would rather see it as intended by the painter (or smith in this case). One of the things I always have a hard time with is to imagine/ reconstruct what a suriage sword would've looked like when made, regardless of whether or not the current shape is pleasing.

Everything is relative. All else being equal, an ubu katana of 75 cm is better than a 68 cm, suriage katana but a flawless though shortened katana is better than an ubu katana with a bad defect. Grey

丸形据文

Is it 木瓜 for 藤原 or 田中？ https://irohakamon.com/kamon/mokkou/mokkou.html

This is interesting as well .

As a general rule, most collectors prefer blades to be at least "josun" or 70cm, which is just over 27.5". An ubu nakago is always preferred, regardless of era or age. Signed is preferred to not signed. In terms of length, after the Edo period, the standard length for gunto (military swords) was closer to the range of 66-68 cm, so the view of the above mostly applies to swords from Edo period or earlier.

your dealer im guessing is referring to edo and later period swords. most koto swords are o-suriage/suriage (cut down nakago). In my opinion an ubu nakago is very important in later swords as if my memory serves me they can not get juyo if cut down nakago. this may have changed. earlier koto swords are fine. so if your asking my opinion then its doesnt matter to me being koto but if edo than for me it must be ubu.

吹毛且不動　小野 (rest is cut off) Suimō katsu fudō Ono- Suimō means sharp ("sharp enough to cut a hair by just blowing on the hair and letting it fall on the blade") Fudō in this context presumably means unbreakable. So "Sharp and unbreakable Ono---"

Kagenobu

Noshu Seki ju Kanemitsu saku

Battle damaged. Only one I have like this.

Maybe someone will consider taking this back on topic. Not like any of you are going to convince anyone of anything. The relaxed members are those who learned to just ignore the trolls, elitists, and contrarians

Indeed... and it's a shame. I totally understand that one can be as elitist in the appreciation of Nihonto as in any other Japanese art, but precisely the Japanese arts generally teach that developing inner control and modesty comes with mastering one's art. Too bad to see peremptory judgments in certain comments, we all have different knowledge and totally different objectives, those who are more educated than others are useless if they do not wish to share their passion. Good to know some enjoy knowing about their knowledge, as Chirac said that touches me one without making the other tremble. You're all sharing the same passion, should stay a pleasant reading !

Wow! Thanks Bruce.😍

A Wakizashi I got recently. Has a single bo-hi on one side and a double bo-hi on the other side. Maybe a jizo boshi? Some real lovely peaks in the hamon. 35.5cm long blade 12.5cm nakago. Sori about 1cm Motohaba about 3.3cm

Here's someone following in Donn F Draeger's Path:

Re. Item No. 248

Item No. 248 Fuchi kashira in copper with gold , silver, copper and shakudo inlays. Subject of long life , good fortune and courage in battle. Signed ( 1st. Gen. ) Yasuchika . Nicely shaped and sculpted set with ground effect produced by use of a ' y ' shaped punch. The cat and butterfly is a commonly used theme in Japanese Art , although fairly rare on tosugu , as a symbol for long life ( meaning over eighty years old in Japanese word play ) . The spider brings blessings from heaven and the dragonfly never retreats .The cat is modelled in 3D with protruding tongue . There are also removable ' fitting shims ' attached to the Fuchi and Kashira as shown in the second set of pictures - maybe these performed a function when mounting the sword or could be just decorative showing a nice shakudo border . There is a cut out exposing the signature on the fuchi to complete the effect. NTK papered , acquired from Japan some ten years ago. Thanks to George Miller for his help on this.

Please check out the following: Masterly.

後藤伝乗 Gotō Denjō