Leaderboard

Until Tokugawa Iyeasu united Japan around 1600, swords were made to be used in battle. Blade made in Kamakura & Nanbokucho eras were often used in battles, day after day, & are considered to be the epitome of sword uality. Over the next few hundred years, most of the early superior construction techniques were lost because they were never written down, & hundreds of years of war resulted in many inferior swords. Look up kazu-uchimono. But I have a katana that was made in 1302, that looks brand-new, & it's certainly in better shape than I am! I've trained in use of the sword for almost 4 decades, & this is the blade I would use, if CQC (close-quarter combat) was necessary. I suggest taking the "Nihontos suck as swords" as the BS it obviously is.

佐藤兼住 = Satō Kanesumi plus a large Seki 関 stamp above. So as to save @Bruce Pennington some time, is there a date on the other side of the nakago? @mecox For a signature comparison, below is a link to another one. This one is courtesy of Kammell with a translation by Ray Singer. Any help would be greatly appreciated Addendum: Kanesumi 兼住 seems to have used a variety of signatures styles. There are several examples on NMB and they can be found by searching under Sato Kanesumi.

Given that what I said above is very qualitative and that you'd really need to handle some different swords to understand the difference, I'll add some diagrams. Diagrams will be more useful than diving into physics and the associated technical terms; radius of Gyration, Mass at blade node, Hilt Inertia, Tip Rotational Inertia, etc. Here's the effective mass curves and agility diagrams of a few very different swords. Below is the effective mass curve and agility diagram for a katana. There will of course be quite significant variation from one specific blade to another, but in my experience this quite well shows the handling characteristics of a katana as compared to the other sword types shown above. As you can no doubt intuit from these diagrams, the katana will much more easily amputate arms or cut a man in two but is much less nimble. Clearly it's not just about mass (how heavy the sword is). Imagine lifting a bar loaded with 80kg, now imagine if all 80kg were loaded on one side of the bar... With the above in mind, the following videos should clarify the way the dynamics of the blade affect swordsmanship. Katana: Longsword: Épée (770g 90cm blade): Sabre (500g 88cm blade): Shinai (~500g ~80cm):

Hi Piers I think we need to be clear……shibayama mounts such as this were never made to take a blade out of shirasaya. The vast majority contain blades that were “made” specifically for the shibayama mountings and are usually vague copies of assorted Tanto sugata usually with no hardening and made from whatever steel they could get their hands on. The sugata, as in this case is very awkward and the nakago is hastily formed…..all done to at least look a bit “old” to the Target market…..Meiji and Taisho period Gaijin who knew little about swords but loved works of art. I doubt it has any hada or hamon beyond a polished on Hadori “look alike”…..but that does not affect its value. Occasionally we find a “real” blade but it is nearly always defective in some way. We can find Wakizashi and Tachi in the same amazing shibayama koshirae and they have a better chance of having something old in them simply because they were aimed at the really seriously rich Gaijin and were very very expensive at the time. My comments are based on having owned (and restored) a great many of these flamboyant pieces in my previous life as a Meiji Art dealer. It’s a nice item….shame our I’ll informed UK government have banned the sale of such things……won’t save a single elephant sadly. All the best. Colin.

https://markussesko.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/nihontocompendium-e1.pdf Courtesy of Markus Sesko

Is this any good Dan ?

Hi Chris, I think you're correct with Shigemitsu - 繁光 It's an unusual form of the kanji for "Shige" so he ought to be relatively easy to track down. There's a Suetsugu Shigemitsu signing in this way that looks a decent candidate but the military sword guys will be able to tell you more: https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-fukuoka-jyu-suetsugu-shigemitsu/

Yes, of course, a Japanese sword will work just fine to murder an unarmed man. It'll work just fine even if you have no training, so long as you draw the blade successfully. That said though, a large shard of broken glass will work just fine for that purpose. However, you'd very likely lose a duel against an (equally skilled) opponent using any of a large variety of European sword types; though it would serve you much, much better than the aforementioned meat cleaver. The point being made here isn't on the basis of metallurgy, but on the basis of the different dynamics, handling characteristics, range, etc and the very different fighting styles which the swords lend themselves to. The question raised at the start of the thread is a very high level question, which is to say that it can't be answered succinctly. The most appropriate response really is to provide a list of a few books which lay out the foundation for the discussion, but I'm guessing you're not sufficiently invested in this to read 1000+ pages? On the point of quality, it depends how you define it. If quality (to your friend) means durability then he'll no doubt agree that overalls are higher quality than bespoke suits.

Another on the back of the Fuchi: https://www.ebay.com/itm/134166909058?hash=item1f3cf89082:g:fN8AAOSwTIZixx5X

警視廳 Metropolitan Police Department mark

For the record, this is the oldest known Tenshōzan blade marked with the 天照山鍛錬場作 signature. Prior to that time, they were made by either Fujiwara Kanenaga 藤原兼永 or Fujiwara Akimitsu 藤原昭光. Only about half of them have the Tenshōzan anchor stamp. The earliest being August 1939 and the last being June 1943.

The problem is that some images shown are also likely gimei. The case where specialized text cannot be replaced by search.

This isn't as simple as it might seem. I can explain this metallurgically and from the perspective of engineering (materials and dynamics) if you'd like, but it'll be a very long post and quite technical. The Japanese sword is a unique solution to a unique set of constraints. It is different in construction, metallurgy, geometry and dynamics from all other swords and is optimised for a different usage case. Having trained in JSA for many years I would certainly not select a Japanese sword for use in a duel. There are "superior" swords for any scenario (other than the draw cut).

Have a blade where the sayagaki said it was made as a gift to a daimyo for whatever that is worth =|:^)

Not exactly a "Royal" but here is a Wakizashi made by Akamatsu Masanori during the Onin war siege of Fuoka Castle. Masanori was assisted by Osafune Munemitsu & Katsumitsu. He made few blades and all of them were political gifts. This blade is presently in Japan awaiting NBTHK shinsa. Masanori was known to have made only 14 blades, this one, No. 15 surfaced in the US a few decades ago.

Just to add, often the shogun or Daimyo who had not treasure swords to offer, had a stock of o suriage mumei swords and offer them with a certificate of famous appraisers stating that the sword was forged by grand Grand Master so and so. Nobody was fooled and the blade could be reoffered a few years later and so on… Everybody was keeping face.

There are many things wrong with the tsuka, profile, section, alternating ito and diamonds. As my father would have said, "t's a bent as a dogs hindleg!" This part is not Japanese, most likely a post war repair attempt. Nothing to learn from that so back to the blade folks. Forgot to mention leather 'kashira'. All the best.

FWIW..The ito isn't alternating like it should be.

Tough one, at least for me. It could fall into Hamano area or into one of the Mito sub schools from the later half of Edo period. I look at the flowers, water, and tree execution and think somewhere in the later Mito schools. One of my favorite tsuba was from the Uchikoshi (Mito sub school) Then I look at the horse's head and how it is executed, and I bounce right over to Hamano school. If someone has a more rock solid opinion, I'd love to learn what they see.

Gents, I believe the appearance is a property of the steel itself and its response to corrosion. Reason?? I have a TENSHOZAN sword with a near identical rust pattern with area of pristine steel. I believe Robin's sword was once like the one I have, but Robin's nakago has been cleaned. I think it is clear that if I cleaned my nakago it would show the same pattern of rust and pitting.The mei is executed in the same thin characters. I might add this sword is BIG and is in a Shingunto koshirae. BaZZa.

FS Signed Dated Tanto by Gassan Sadakatsu Tanto w/ Hozon paper in Aikuchi Koshirae Signature: Osaka Ju Gassan Sadakatsu Kinsaku Dated: Kouki 2603 Nen 11 Gatsu Kichijitsu (1943 November lucky day) Made within one month of his death. Comes with: Silver single piece habaki Aikuchi Koshirae as shown Silk sword bag as shown NBTHK Hozon paper as shown Dimensions: Blade length: 23.1cm or 9.09 inches Width at hamachi: 2.21cm or 0.87 inches Kasane: 0.68 cm or 0.27 inches Style: Yoroidoshi Jigane: Koitame hada well grained with jinie and kinsuji work Hamon: Bright and sharp with Niedeki suguha with rather thick nioikuchi and double hamon. Boshi: round Gassan Sadakatsu was born in 1869 as the second son of the famous First Gassan Sadakazu. Sadakatsu was an exceptionally skilled swordsmith working in the various styles of Gassan, Soshu, Bizen and Yamato. While working under his father Sadakatsu forged only a few swords inscribed with own name, though this changed in the late Taisho era following his father's death. Sadakatsu put all his energies into making his own swords after this working as a purveyor to the Imperial Household, making swords dedicated to the Ise-jingu shrine and accepting orders from dignitaries. He trained two historically important smiths, his real son the Second Gassan Sadakazu, and his pupil Takahashi Sadatsugu. Both went on to be designated as the earliest Preservers of Important Intangible Cultural Assets, ie. Living National Treasures. Sadakatsu passed away in 1943 at 74 years old. This tanto is likely a shoe-in for Tokubetsu Hozon papers should the new owner wish to submit. Asking $5300 for this. I never turn down reasonable offers. Express shipping in USA is included. Priority international shipping will be calculated by your location. Cheers!

http://Japan-forward.com/as-sign-of-goodwill-president-putin-returns-swords-to-Japan/ I think it is great to see that swords are still seen as diplomatic gifts and of importance. As are kabuto. And wow....he gave a Muramasa back in September? I bet that sword has a tale to tell. Nice light hearted article to enjoy.

Oh okay I see that makes sense. I looked into Suetsugu Shigemitsu, the extant mei examples don't really match up to this one in terms of style. I would bet its still most likely one of his, but kinda holding out hope on an earlier Shigemitsu. I'll upload the full nakago pictures as soon as I get them.

Hello, Recently inherited a sword and having trouble identifying the maker... Hoping you all can help. It appears to have markings at the beginning saying NO SHU JU and at the end saying SAKU but I cannot figure out the rest. I thought at first it was a Kanesane or a Kanetaka but not sure. Looks like a partial Showa stamp at the top of the tang but there are no arsenal marks or Kokuin. It is all in pretty rough shape... Pretty sure someone tried to clean it years ago and did a wonderful job of rusting the blade Anyways, any help is appreciated!

@Ninja I have always found the “terrible steel” meme to be absurd. Not because it sounds crazy but because the people saying it are always guessing and a quick check of sources refutes them. Because a background in medical research I’m used to having to support every claim made with evidence so that makes guys guessing and assuming their guess is a fact seem wild. I would advice a check through google scholar: there is no evidence to support the claim nihonto had bad steel, especially for their time. In fact if you look at Yaso’s studies in metallurgic journals you can see it actually holds up surprisingly well even by modern standards https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264439179_Study_of_strength_and_toughness_in_Japanese_sword_produced_from_Tamahagane_steel_by_Tatara_process With all scientific sources contradicting the armchair I am forced to conclude he just made it up and thought it sounding plausible made it right. A guess is good enough to justify experiments. Not enough to guess a fact. “He concludes by writing that probably a kitchen knife from a Chinese butcher (or any culture with access to decent iron ore) of the same period was sharper, held the edge better, and was less brittle than most Japanese swords” One of the funnier ironies is that while HEMA reenactors without evidence have claimed medieval western swords were made of super steels, Sword and the Crucible, which referenced many studies found medieval and early modern western specimens were rife with slag inclusions, even in the edge which was something nihonto avoided. A devil’s advocate could with more credibility go “a kitchen knife from a Chinese butcher is sharper and less brittle than the medieval western specimens”. I don’t really believe that. The samples they looked at were likely not representative and many traditions like Toledo were known for excellence. But as is, there is ironically much more evidence of European swords having brittle slag rife edges than there is in Japan. In all honesty comparisons seem rather silly and too often are just people guessing. Now much more useful to me than armchairs guessing which sword is weaker than a Chinese butcher knife are studies that note parallels between Europe’s celebrated traditions and Nihonto. For instance Spain also used mild steel cores and harder edges. Perhaps convergent evolution lead to makers of working swords using that as a trick to improve toughness? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328748284_Welding_by_Hot_Forging_of_Two_Carbon_Steels_for_the_Manufacture_of_Spanish_and_Japanese_Weapons

Here are some examples of what appear to be Japanese-made Katchushi and Tosho style tsuba which have added nanban nunome (overlay) patterns. I can think of three possible explanations: 1- These could have been Muromachi period Japanese exports, that were decorated in continental Asia for use there, then ended up back in Japan at some point. 2- They could have been made entirely in continental Asia, and they just copied the Japanese Katchushi and Tosho tsuba shapes. 3- They could have been "decorated" at one of the ports like Hizen (possibly even at a much later date than the production of the tsuba plate itself). There's no way to know for sure though... It's also possible that all three hypotheses are correct, resulting in multiple avenues for producing a similar outcome, and making it really difficult to pin down any one of these "histories" on any particular tsuba. The top and bottom pair of images show the omote and ura faces of one specific tsuba. It's interesting to note the difference in the treatment of the nunome outline of the seppa-dai on the opposing faces of the tsuba.

There are many, many definitions of “quality.” From a practical standpoint (that of protecting one’s life on the battlefield), the best definition is “meeting the customer’s requirements.” For the sword, the prime requirements are: The sword must be sharp and able to cut well The sword must be resilient and able to resist breaking The sword must not bend during use The Japanese sword has throughout its history proven its ability to meet these requirements. While modern collectors’ definitions of quality might border on the purely aesthetic, the beauty prized by today’s connoisseurs is a by-product of meeting the above practical requirements; the beauty of the grain resulting from the forge folding methods to ensure resiliency and bending resistance, and hamon structure from differential hardening to ensure sharpness in addition to the resiliency.

Sadly thats something I not care for haha but good alternative. I think there are more nihonto in Russia's treasury though 😁

Eric - There are references out there with the information you seek. Also keep in mind they don't often put gimei on a bad sword - an unsigned work that is average or better garners more money with the big names - even in the days before widespread publishing people knew a crap sword when they saw one. There is a fine line for when restoration makes sense, in terms of art and finance. A tough spot to be in and I suspect many of us have that "one sword" that we ponder over... -t

personally i dont trust the originality of these mons.

Agree with Kirill. UPS isn't reliable these days.

If we are talking about deadly objects, even a baseball bat or a stone thrown at the head can kill. Even if you drown yourself while eating you die.... I haven't seen it because I signed up yesterday

I think Shiboyama is very neat. Europeans absolutely hated shirosaya and overall did not care that much about the blades. Emperor Nicholas the 2nd had something like 10-13 blades outfitted with scrimshaw carved mounts so at least they would have some presentable look rather than shirasaya. However pre-Edo displays also tended to be in expensive mounts and never just shirasaya.

These articles will be of interest: http://www.nihontocraft.com/Aratameshi_Nihonto.html http://www.nihontocraft.com/Suishinshi_Masahide.html

This ons has "示“mark and 警視廳 Metropolitan Police Department mark。

They cut really well, and yes, they are the most brittle swords that ever existed in the world. You will not find non-Japanese blade with hagire and major chips also tend to be uncommon. There is a reason visible nie is considered major fault in other cultures. A great cutter with very low survivability.

That's not one you see every day, Trystan! LeBar actually has a few unusually painted scabbard that he lists as souvenir pieces. I'm thinking that the same thing likely applies to Type 95s and some of the less common colours or fancier combinations.

Kind of a loaded question. Not all Nihonto are created the same. By this I mean not all smiths created excellent swords. If you take a sword by an excellent rated smith im sure it would compare to a excellently made modern Japanese blade of today. But they were also designed for a different environment compared to other cultures(armor, swordsmanship etc..) Since your brought up knives, Japanese chefs knives are INDEED brittle on the edge. They are edge hardened(like nihonto) and can take wicked sharp edge but will chip easily whereas a western blade tends to fold instead of chip.

@Shamsy Steve Found a red bean paint Type 30 scabbard.

Good evening Bruce, I saw your Kaigunto when looking on this forum about Yoshishige. Very similar sword ! The need for stamps indicating a good quality Showato would completely make sense, especially when swordsmiths are also known for other high quality productions. We had exactly the same need in Europe during XIXth century when evolving from artisanal swordsmiths production to large scale industrial production, having as a consequence some concerns about swords quality. For example during the 1880s the procurement scandal in UK, after a series of incidents with broken army and navy swords at combat. British had as a consequence the "prooved" stamps on their swords, and other quality labels appeared at the same time abroad like the "Eisenhauer" (cutting metal) mention on Solingen swords or equivalent "Yzerhouver" in the Netherlands. Purpose was to certify quality of industrial swords. We could have exactly the same logic in 1930s Japan, in need for a mass production but guaranteeing combat-ready swords. That's just hypotetic but that would make sense to consider these stamps indicate good quality showato. Still not Gendaito but intersting for those looking for military swords like we do.

Quite an interesting piece. Leather ito. Can you tell what the mekugi is made of? The remains of the leather cover over a civil saya says, to me, at least the saya was original to the war period. I have seen a few showa stamped blades in civil fittings, then refitted for the war effort. No idea how or why the blade went civil first. But it's not unheard of. I'm impressed by how deeply that Showa stamp was imprinted! Maybe the nakago was still hot when struck? This is the first Kunishige blade I've seen with a stamp of any kind.

A remarkably similar piece up for auction now- same subjects and layout to Bruno's example but within a different frame and same design as Glen's first two mokko examples [top of this page]

another exemple...

Oh and as Ian pointed out, there's definitely some influences from Tibet (and I'll add Vietnam as well) in some Nanban tsuba. "Nanban" is referencing a giant cross-cultural meeting point and sharing of ideas. There are a quite a few tsuba examples that get really difficult to pin down to a specific area of production because there are elements of multiple cultural motifs and techniques all wrapped up in the same tsuba. There's tons to sort through and lots to learn about. Here's a late Ming period (1500s-1600s), decorative horse saddle side plate: more info on it here: https://mandarinmansion.com/item/tibetan-style-pierced-saddle-plate

Ian here's a few examples of tsuba made by Chinese smiths living and working in Nagasaki (Edo period). I know of one "school" of these Chinese smiths, called "Kiyou-Toujin", and they had a very distinct style to them:

They also did a review of the restoration work done in Nara Buddhist art museum's journal.

A rare representation of a firearm on a sword fitting - never take a sword to a gun fight! And it can shoot around corners. pretty close to the real thing.

I came across two great examples of Chinese vs Japanese versions of that same double dragon themed tsuba I posted above. The images were also detailed enough to catch a glimpse of the 2-directional Chinese nunome vs 3-directional Japanese nunome. The 2-way pattern is definitely Chinese. However, I don't know if the Chinese smiths ever adopted the three-way pattern outside of the Chinese smiths who ended up living and working in Japan. So I can't say with certainty that the presence of the three way pattern is an absolutely certain sign that the tsuba was made in Japan, although it'll still be a very "safe" assumption. As with most tsuba, there gets to be this grey area of crossover in style and technique amongst different smiths in the same and/or different areas, and even in different time periods. Often those "mysteries" are part of the fun... but sometimes they can be a frustrating nightmare, and you just have to accept that you might never be able to find a clear answer The result is that you'll always find examples that become a "toss-up" in terms of classifying and you just have to throw yours hands up Chinese (again, note the cutout hitsu-ana and the added hitsu-ana ring): Japanese (original hitsu-ana):

I had one more example on file... I've got roughly 1500 Nanban tsuba images I've been building up and trying to sort/classify: OK, I know that's a little obsessive...