sashikomi/hadori

I aim these comments primarily at newer collectors.

From "New Gen. of Jap. S/smiths" by Tamio Tsuchiko p.216 and 218 hadori is "whitening inside the hamon and drawing the hamon line" and the accepted originator of this type of polish was one of the surviving lines of the Hon'ami after the Haitorei into about 1930s. Nakahara pp.83-85 discusses this hadori and describes sashikomi as a polish that brings out "all the blades features" and follows the true hamon line.

Broken down to its simplest form...sashikomi allows the acrivity to be clearly seen when looking directly at the side of the blade while hadori is a misty white edge that does not reveal anything until in hand and pointed at the light...this is why one can't tell anything by looking at pics of hadori blades in NBTHK papers and nihonto books....this is why papers and dealers always include an oshigata, so you can see the true features. As an old "geezer" who began collecting in the 70s the hadori polish was rarely seen in swords currently in the west. I now find that to the new generation of collectors post 1980s, hadori is the norm in sword polish. For this reason, I thought it might be interesting and helpful to discuss the two polishes and their contemporary eras. (I am open to mistakes and corrections of course).

I can say from MY experience that in the post-war years one never saw hadori in the UK and Australia. 99% of blades were polished in sashikomi. In all my years of collecting I can only point to two blades (gendaito) with hadori and in both cases (rjt smiths) the hamon is so active with nijuba, hotsure etc that really, the only polish possible in rushed wartime conditions was a suguba style hadori. All the others, including "souvenir" koto, shinto swords from occupied Japan still in pre-war polishes it was very rare to see hadori.

It therefore separates us into immediate postwar collectors and post 1980s collectors...in fact, one reason why I turned away from nihonto of all ages to being more or less "WWII gendaito only" is the polish. In 1980 when I first went to Japan and saw lots of swords in museums, all? the "recently" restored blades looked exactly the same (look in amy modern book of pics)...all white painted husseys in hadori haha...the only swords I remember particularly are the Yokoyama smith works still in sashikomi in shrines and old displays.

As to being "true" to bringing out the sword's features I think it can be said that hadori is often used to hide flaws that would certainly appear in sashikomi...that is why it is called kessho (cosmetic). this must be an important point to consider.

Look at the two pics here and say honestly what their particular attractions are and what you consider as necessary features to be visible in a sword and whether both polishes show these (I have chosen two swords with essentially the same hamon).

I am not trying to be offensive here...I have shown my preferences and why, and it would be nice to discuss other preferences and why. Please feel free to relate polish to other forms of display art, such as paintings etc.

Let me say here that I am puzzled at the almost total swing to hadori polish...is it because newer members aren't aware of "what was"? Are newer members just following the "modern trend?...is hadori really a "must have" and "the best"? Personally I don't think so and I am concerned that the art of sashikomi will be lost...hopefully, all new collectors might become "re-interested" in sashikomi and insist on ordering some sashikomi polishes before this happens.

Hope this is of some interest.

Dear George,

I fully agree with you, sashi-komi tells you all. I asked quite the same question to a Japanese dealer three years ago in Tokyo. He smiled at me and told me that hadori/kesho was better to sale swords. If I remind me well, the excellent book "facts and fundamentals of Japanese swords" by Nobuo Nakahara, explane this. He said that a kesho polish has the advantage to bring out the jihada but has the disavantage to be able to hide all the blade's faults (page 85)........

As an eternal sword student, I definitely prefer a sashi-komi polish. :D

Hadori is problematic when buying on-line or when explaining a blade's features to a person not familiar with Nihonto. Hadori is also often exaggerated, changing the appearance of the blade too much. I am a Sashikomi man, whenever possible.

Veli

An excellent polish is an excellent polish, and in order to fully appreciate such work one must first learn how to properly view the sword.

I think each polish has it's place. For me kesho polish is best used on a hamon were the nioi-guchi is not neatly formed (niju-ba, hotsure, etc.). Here is a Sendai Kunikane polished by Mishina san as an example of what I mean. His use of hadori brings the hamon together well, and makes it look more uniform. As Franco said, a good polish is a good polish, but I also think maybe kesho polish is overused today.

Ah, the old debate....

I will take a well done hadori polish over a sashi-komi in almost all cases. Why? Simple: A properly done hadori polish brings out the hada and allows one to see all the detail in the hamon as well. You get your cake and can eat it too.

Hadori gets a bad rap for two reasons: when it isn't done right, it is god awful. Most have seen cheap, poorly done examples. Secondly, many aren't aware of the proper way to view a sword and fail to appreciate a good hadori polish. It is all there if you know how to look. Can it hide flaws? Superficially, but again, if you know how and what to look for, it's all apparent.

True, it doesn't photo well. I can live with that....Frankly, it isn't a debate that can be settled from photos. One needs to see swords in hand to properly see the differences.

Some cling to sashi-komi as "traditional". In truth, polishing has evolved throughout history, just as swords have. I doubt many would want a polish as it was done 1000 years ago. Hadori is another step on the time line. It is the current standard.

With most WWII era gendai-to, the hada is quite tight, often tending toward mu-ji hada. With a sashi-komi polish, it remains rather indistinct. A good hadori polish will bring out the hada and a new sword emerges. I have seen this time and again in gendai-to I have had polished.

Franco's comment is spot on: first learn what a good polish is in both styles. Educate yourself, then your preferences will follow.

To each his own though...plenty of room at the table for all....

Dear George,

This subject was well dissected, discussed, argued about ... ad nauseam. The thread was originated by SwordGuyJoe back in April 2010 under the heading New Polisher Experience. It run until August 30th, 2010. It was a full 9 pages in length. Here is a link to one particular page : viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7381&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=conductor I believe this link is to page 1, ... but one can easily go back to page 1 from the above link if it is not and read, and read, and read.

Do we really want to go back to hearing the same biased preferences. We ... " old timers " ... are not likely to change our minds re: sashikomi verses hadori polishing.

... Ron Watson

PS. Since writing this reply to George, ... I see Chris has already replied with his ... bias.

I think each polish has it's place.

Words of wisdom. As Chris said, what matters is the quality of the polish.

For me kesho polish is best used on a hamon were the nioi-guchi is not neatly formed (niju-ba, hotsure, etc.).

You probably have meant sashikomi? I mean hadori looks weird on a hitatsura blade...

in order to fully appreciate such work one must first learn how to properly view the sword.

is essential.

The spectator must cultivate the proper attitude for receiving the message, as the artist must know how to impart it.

 

Do we really want to go back to hearing the same biased preferences. We ... " old timers " ... are not likely to change our minds re: sashikomi verses hadori polishing.

 

... Ron Watson

 

PS. Since writing this reply to George, ... I see Chris has already replied with his ... bias.

My dictionary defines "bias" as an "unfair prejudice". I would think simply "preference" would be the more appropriate characterization as I see nothing unfair or prejudiced (preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience) in my choice. I have seen many examples, good and bad, of both, and have thus made an informed choice based on both experience and a rationale (which I have explained).

Like I said, everyone is welcome to their own opinion, however they may arrive at it. Believe me, I have seen enough to know that your mind is not something I would ever endeavor to change.

There is no reason to take anyone's preferences personally. It is, as is much of art, a matter of personal taste. While we may not agree on its application in all cases, George and I both agree that it would be a sad thing if the art of sashi-komi were to disappear and that is should be preserved.

Ah but this thread took me back to the original thread,

and then back to the New South Wales display thread.

Love those swords and the display.

Especially what Colin did for the kodogu.

Any newbies punching up the original thread should also find that New South Wales display thread and give it a read.

Here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4666

If I lived there, I think I would visit many mornings before going to work.

I like both polishes on a piece by piece basis. However, I enjoy viewing sashikomi first and find myself more attracted to blades polished in that way. When it comes down to ordering a polish on a blade, I ask the togishi to do the style that best suits the piece as oppose to one or the other.

OK, to get back to the OP question...since it has been stated that "in order to fully appreciate such work one must first learn how to properly view the sword", can the learned please look at the question asked and then explain how they assess and buy swords?

Look at the two pics here and say honestly what their particular attractions are and what you consider as necessary features to be visible in a sword and whether both polishes show these (I have chosen two swords with essentially the same hamon).

 

If you saw the hadori sword on an on-line at a dealers site or in a dealers catalogue...how do you assess it? If you assess it as "buyable" what do you do...just buy it? or do you order it with 7 days approval? or do you fly to Japan to "properly" examine it? Can it be assessed in any real level from that photograph...and what about the sashikomi pic? can any assessment be done here also? if so, how does the assessment level compare with the hadori pic?... what does this say about the hadori or sashikomi question?

Regards,

Look at the two pics here and say honestly what their particular attractions are and what you consider as necessary features to be visible in a sword and whether both polishes show these (I have chosen two swords with essentially the same hamon).

 

 

OK, to get back to the OP question...since it has been stated that "in order to fully appreciate such work one must first learn how to properly view the sword", can the learned please look at the question asked and then explain how they assess and buy swords?

If you saw the hadori sword on an on-line at a dealers site or in a dealers catalogue...how do you assess it? If you assess it as "buyable" what do you do...just buy it? or do you order it with 7 days approval? or do you fly to Japan to "properly" examine it? Can it be assessed in any real level from that photograph...and what about the sashikomi pic? can any assessment be done here also? if so, how does the assessment level compare with the hadori pic?... what does this say about the hadori or sashikomi question?

 

Regards,

Lots of questions here! Here's my take....

Regardless of the type of polish, buying from photos is always a risk. No, you simply can't evaluate the quality of a blade from a photo; without having it in hand means it is a risky proposition for everyone regardless of knowledge or experience. In this case, you have to find ways, if what you can see appeals, to reduce your risk to a level you are comfortable with to make the purchase. Return privilege is the obvious solution. Without that, one needs to have a lot of experience with either the smith or the seller, preferably both.

In my case, I don't collect swords that simply appeal to me: I collect smiths from a certain area and time that appeal. I am quite familiar with the work of a great many of these smiths. I have bought many swords sight unseen, not even a picture in a few cases, for not small sums, without a return privilege. I knew the smiths in question very well and trusted the seller's descriptions. Perhaps I am in a unique position in this regards, perhaps I am foolish, or maybe just lucky because of all the swords I have bought for my collection this way, there are only one or two disappointments. Maybe it's the trifecta, I don't know. But yes, when I see a sword I want, I buy it, preferably with an inspection period, but not always. I would strongly recommend getting a return option though if there is any anxiety.

Yet another reason why it pays to specialize and to know well what to expect.

It bears mentioning that many times a dealer will offer an oshigata which can at least give one an idea of what can't be seen in a photo of a sword in hadori. Kantei-sho are also helpful. There are enough dealers who offer returns, along with solid reputations, that one really shouldn't have to worry too much about this issue.

This is also why ebay is more a casino than a legitimate merchant front and why one buys there at their own risk.

Bottom line, I can't prefer a hadori to sashikomi because of a slight benefit it might offer in a purchase by photo. One of the most important determinations of the quality of a sword is the brightness of the hamon and nioi-guchi which you can't get from a photo no matter what the type of polish. I am looking at the big picture in my evaluation of the two styles and prefer hadori in most cases for the reasons I have already stated.

Hope this sheds some light...

Well said, Chris. Just wish my nerves were good enough to buy sight-unseen & with return privilege...!

Ken

Thanks....

It's easy Ken- just drink half a bottle of your favorite spirits, fire up the computer, and surf away! It's amazing how easy it can be!

But seriously, the biggest gamble, if you want to call it that, I have taken was to buy a 31" Yasukuni blade, from England as I recall, sight unseen, for well in excess of $10KUS. I knew the smith, and I knew the togi who had polished it. He said "buy it". I did. I was not disappointed. You can find it in the Kishida san book on Yasukuni to with a story about it written by the togi-shi, MIshina Kenji san. I paid $5000 on ebay for a completely rust covered 30" Shibata Ka. I know his work and took a shot. Polished great and one that I kind of wish I had kept....There have been others but those two stand out to me....

Very good answer Chris.

I think your reasoning is sound...buy the smith that is proven himself many times to you already...can't fault it.

I also agree that buying off ebay is always a risk...but viewing a sword in sashikomi is much less of a risk than hadori as one can assess much more from a pic.

One aspect touched on in your comment though is (I suspect) a strong consideration for many of the answerers here, and that is...if in hadori polish, and in pic form, I suspect that the potential buyer would have to rely on the mei and the kanteisho. This of course takes us back to the old dictum of "the sword confirms the mei". If one can't see the sword because of hadori, then one is obliged to accept the opposite, that "the mei confirms the sword" for these cases... what then can we say about the comment "in order to fully appreciate such work one must first learn how to view the sword" :D I would be interested to know how these other answerers reconcile this problem of assessing in hadori with their method of buying?

Regards,

Dear Trotter san,

Please don't take my comment personally,

I am also trying to share my opinion (and info) with people who studying sword by mainly Internet and books.

to make further comment, I must be careful, so, now, i am speaking with an old master polisher in Japan, to get more info,

Best regards,

PS : BTW. Does someone (in France) know a polisher mr.Kurokawa who lived in France in mid 80' ?

Hi Kunitaro sama,

Of course not, I do not take it personally, we are friends here discussing an approach to kantei of the hadori blade :D

I am interested to know how the western collectors assess the hadori blade for buying without being able to view the blade "properly" (as the two pictures I posted show the problem). what do they look for?

Go shimpai naku kudasai.

Regards,

When buying a Hadori polished blade on-line, I prefer dealers who supply picture sets like this:

http://taiseido.biz/cn11/cn22/pg523.html

Veli

You probably have meant sashikomi? I mean hadori looks weird on a hitatsura blade...

Hi Mariuszk,

No, I meant kesho... but with hitatsura, it's diferent. It usually depends on how much tobiyaki there is. If a lot, I would prefer sashikomi - if a little, kesho can look good. In the end, it comes down to a sword by sword basis...

Here's an Echizen Yasutsugu with much tobiyaki and wild hamon. The hadori gives it a whole different look, but it still is beautiful... sooo, with hitatsura I guess either way can be nice...

Very good answer Chris.

I think your reasoning is sound...buy the smith that is proven himself many times to you already...can't fault it.

I also agree that buying off ebay is always a risk...but viewing a sword in sashikomi is much less of a risk than hadori as one can assess much more from a pic.

 

One aspect touched on in your comment though is (I suspect) a strong consideration for many of the answerers here, and that is...if in hadori polish, and in pic form, I suspect that the potential buyer would have to rely on the mei and the kanteisho. This of course takes us back to the old dictum of "the sword confirms the mei". If one can't see the sword because of hadori, then one is obliged to accept the opposite, that "the mei confirms the sword" for these cases... what then can we say about the comment "in order to fully appreciate such work one must first learn how to view the sword" :D I would be interested to know how these other answerers reconcile this problem of assessing in hadori with their method of buying?

Regards,

To be honest, I don't consider the risk much less. As I said, it is crucial to see the brightness of the nioi-guchi and hamon. You can't get that from photos no matter the polish. All you get with sashikomi is a clearer understanding of the shape, or outline, of the hamon. I don't find that all that helpful in determining the quality of the blade. And to me, buying from photos is always risky, no matter the polish. Perhaps a bit less with hadori, but still certainly very risky.

As for buying, most rely on a kantei-sho for validation and the reputation of the seller regardless of whether or not the sword is in hand or online. Kantei is not done with photos as we all know.

If your point is "hadori makes it difficult to judge the quality of a sword from pictures", I agree, but that is also the case with sashikomi so it is a wash.

Bottom line, you can't make any certain judgments about quality from pictures, period. Buying from pictures, unless you have assurances, lots of experience, and a lot of trust in the seller, is never a good idea.

Sounds reasonable Chris. I wonder how other answerers buy their hadori polished blades...your way or fly to Japan for "in hand" examination? Maybe Franco, who made the comment about the importance of " how to view the sword" could tell us what he does?

On another note, my wife and kidz just came back from Japan last night...lots of new sword bags, some gunto leather saya covers ($10 in the markets) and of course, some Meiji chocolates...mmmm, Meiji! :lol:

Regards,

FWIW, I never bought a sword online, I examined each one personally before I decided to buy (or not), no matter what type of polish it was in. Having said that, there are some individuals and dealers I would trust enough to buy from without sword in hand, it just never came to that.

I hardly eat any sweets, but occasionally have a craving for chocolate. When that happens, only three brands are acceptable: British Cadbury, Swiss Milka and Swedish Marabou . But then again, I could think of a few exceptions (about the chocolate, not the swords) ...

Thanks for your enlightening comments Guido (actually I havent read them yet I keep getting distracted, cant think why )

Just to prove I am a philistine. All but two of the swords (all the better ones) currently in my collection were bought on line.

The difference being I knew the dealers very well personally and by reputation. Each of them had a no nonsence return policy and all of them prodcued very detailed images an descriptions of what they were selling.

If I were based in Japan or the USA I would probably also prefer to buy swords in hand. Unfortunately in my part of the world there are few of the same quality (other than those that occassionally appear in the larger auction houses) as you can find in either of these countries. So I have to rely on online sales and decent people. So far that has worked well for me.

Agree with comments about the polish the key factor is whichever way you go have it done well, if a good proffessional polisher recommends something listen to them

Mmmm...can I go to your chocolate shop Guido? haha.

Thanks for the comments.

About assessing and polishes... In my early years 1970s, 80s etc it was only possible to find swords locally, so it was always in-hand buying (great days)...but the last 10 years has been via on-line pics and descriptions...much more risky of course, but decent deals and dealers still exist.

Ebay is a declining source IMHO...however, some ebay dealers are very reputable and I have acquired a few nice swords there and still occasionally do a search...Of the 8 I purchased over time, I kept 6 and I was disappointed in 2 (all gendaito).

All of them were purchased by assessing from pics and descriptions and my past experience of having many similar types of swords in-hand...naturally, I would say that sashikomi make it easier to assess a blade this way than hadori, but, having said all my hadori rants I now have a confession to make...the two I sent back were in sashikomi, but deceived me, and of the 6 I have kept, 2 are in hadori...so I have purchased hadori blades...I have purchased them on line...and they can be quite nice, although I modify that to say they are nice despite the hadori haha).

I was lucky in that in the hadori blades enough of the "true" (very complex) hamon was visible in the pics so that I decided to take a chance, and in both cases I was very impressed with them in hand (although I would still say that hadori is not doing the hamon total justice, but then maybe they are too complex for sashikomi also)...Being original WWII period hadori it is "different" from today and not so heavily "cosmetic" as was appearing on all periods of swords I saw in my visits to Japan museums in 1980s and as continues today, so maybe the hamon was easier to discerne from pics than modern hadori would allow.

As Chris said, the average WWII polish may not bring out the hada as well as modern polish, but I will stay with what I have got...having seen modern hadori in hand I still think I would be too reluctant to risk my losing the enjoyment I have from my WWII hadori blades to re-polish....maybe there is something to be said in favour of "vintage" polishes being kept? ...but maybe that is another topic for another time.

If not being in a position to always view a possible purchase in hand I think the risk factor is always there, but knowledge of swords, polishes and knowledge of dealers is the only true way to reduce the disappointment factor, as has been said. In on-line buying I think sashikomi is a bigger help in successful appraisal and for me it is the "period style" I grew up with. However, having acquired a pair of WWII hadori blades and been able to assess hadori a bit more now, I am a bit more tolerant...but don't push me!!!!

Hope this makes sense..

Did someone say chocolate!

Like Guido, I have yet to purchase a sword online. My last two purchases were both done by verbal descriptions with a return policy before final approval. As for hadori swords for sale online, there will be clues that point towards the quality of the sword, as well as details that should raise flags of caution. Regardless, there is no substitute unfortunately for sword in hand, which still requires the knowledge, ability, and skills necessary for a proper evaluation. The better collectors I now stick carefully to kantei basics maintaining a very methodical approach in evaluating swords. In the 1st years of collecting I favored sashikomi, but now especially after learning how to properly look at a sword, simply favor an excellent sword in excellent polish.

Franco san,

I have not much to say after you.

My last two purchases were both done by verbal descriptions with a return policy before final approval.

Yes, experienced people or dealers are trading without exchanging images,

because, both know exactly what they talking or pointing about,

Regardless, there is no substitute unfortunately for sword in hand, which still requires the knowledge, ability, and skills necessary for a proper evaluation.

When you joint a study group in Japan,

Old member teach you how to see the sword, and basic. step by step with very good example.

most of beginners will be able to make basic kantei within one year,

mean time, they visit commercial sword shop in town, then they will learn different qualities.

I know some people who hold a sword and acting like examine sword, but, They are looking for Kizu. don't know really what they are looking at.

In the 1st years of collecting I favored sashikomi, but now especially after learning how to properly look at a sword, simply favor an excellent sword in excellent polish.

I think most of high quality swords (above Juyo) have Kesho (Hadori) polish.

Is it only fashion ?

If Sashikomi polish is better ( to see all activities ), why not it become less popular than Kesho polish in Japan ?

If it is personal choice, most of high quality sword collectors order Kesho polish in Japan, why ?

Very good comments gentlemen, it is much appreciated to know how you purchse from a distance...it is more trust and experience that direct appraisal. You certainly illustrate the highest standards of appreciation and collecting of swords

I see you prefer kesho...I prefer sashikomi...I do understand however that these polishes belong to 2 different periods of time ...history time to 1945 and art time after 1954...I do not collect from art time, so for me the correct polish is sashikomi.

Kunitaro san touches on the comment I made about preserving examples of original "period" polishes (or not?). May I make my comments in reply...I speak partly as a former museum professional...and partly my opinion. This raised the question of what is a Japanese sword - artefact or art?

I think most of high quality swords (above Juyo) have Kesho (Hadori) polish.

Yes, I think that most are now kesho. I think nearly all have post WWII kesho polish now. From an historic perspective if a sword is in good clean original old polish, I think it is not the correct thing to remove the original polish as this is artistic expression, not historic preservation

 

Is it only fashion ?

yes, it is the current fashion since 1954 IMHO and it has its followers. In this sense, sashikomi also can be said to have been a previous fashion (I am one of the followers :D ). In this situation the pre-1945 swords are artefacts and the post 1954 swords are art. Historic protection should apply to the pre 1945 and artistic expression should apply to the post 1954. To alter the historic sword to comply with the current art is incorrect attitude IMP&PO (in my professional & personal opinion)

 

If Sashikomi polish is better ( to see all activities ), why not it become less popular than Kesho polish in Japan ?

I can't say that sashikomi is "better", but it is the true polish of swords made 1650-1945. I think it is less popular because kesho is adopted as the "art polish" of today and for post-war collectors it is normal...but there must still be some older Japanese collectors who keep their swords in original kesho polish? or maybe only in secret? (himitsu de).

 

If it is personal choice, most of high quality sword collectors order Kesho polish in Japan, why ?

That is difficult to understand for me. It is confusing to me if they consider swords as artifacts or art...swords after 1954 are art, but maybe all swords, from all periods are art to them? If I look at this in my own professional (museum) and personal opinion I say this...Swords made after 1954 should be in the post-war kesho polish as this is "current" artistic perception, but swords polished before 1945 that are still in good condition should not be re-polished out of their correct artistic period polish into the artistic perception of today. In my younger days I saw many photographs of important old swords. They had sashikomi polish which was "normal" up to 1945. When I saw the same swords in museums in Japan after 1980 I saw they were in kesho. I could not recognise them...so different. It is obvious that the owners had them re-polished...are they now the same swords?

This raises (for me) the question of polishing old swords with a new polish.

I know we can not allow rust and damage to occur to a blade so if it has occurred it must be re-polished, but can I ask:

What should we do with a sword that still had an intact polish from say, 1650, or maybe 1550, or maybe 1350? - should such a valuable historic item be altered to remove the polish of the past to replace it with a polish that is acceptable to today's collector/critic.

A difficult subject...