Use of the Seki stamp and...

Hello,

Somewhere along the line I formed the opinion that the presence of a Seki stamp on a nakago automatically indicated a non traditionally made blade.

Recently I came across a WWII period IJA Officer sword, dated June 1943, that is described as being:

Traditionally made, hand forged, water tempered and made from mill steel.

Subsequent enquiry with the seller resulted in my being advised that it could also be described as a mill steel gendaito and that from 1942 on all swords were inspected and stamped regardless of method of manufacture.

To me the blade is more likely a semi-traditionally made one with some hand finishing and oil quenching. However, I'm far from expert at this so would appreciate the advice of others more experienced.

What I would like from the members here is clarification on the Seki stamp issue and thoughts on the possibility of determining that a blade has been hand forged and water quenched after polishing is done.

Thanks for your assistance.

Regards,

Stu

I'm no expert either, but IMO the seller's description is a contradiction in terms. If a sword is made of mill steel then it can't be traditionally forged or qualify as a gendaito as the terms are normally used. There's also a very good thread at the start of this topic on tang stamps and what they signify.

Hello Richard,

Thank you for your reply. I too feel it's a contradiction however I have much to learn, hence the post.

Thank you also for mentioning the other thread. In fact I read it over several times before posting in the hope that I would get a clear answer but have found the information it contains more along the line of what the various stamps are as opposed to their being a set rule for when they are used. I'll go over it again though in case I missed or misunderstood what I as reading.

Regards,

Stu

My understanding, as per this site, is that aside from a star stamp any stamp, perform none more so the seki, indicates non-traditional in some manner.

This means either:

1. not tamahagne

2. Not hand forged

3. Not water tempered (oil quench)

Any one or combo warranted a stamp to prevent buyers from being mislead into paying a gendaito price from a showato.

Regards

i have a katana by kanetoshi which is seki stamped but it as a beautiful suguhu hamon which is water quenched and a ko-itame grain too....it is not traditionally made as the steel will not be tamahagane but it is handmade.

...

see post...viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6813&p=53880&hilit=kanetoshi#p53880

also shows an identical sword to mine advertised as gendaito too

The Seki stamp doesn't cover just one, or even a few factory and private forges. There were very many forges of all sizes, from factory types to the smallest forge. The Seki stamp is a regional acceptance stamp. Most you will find are of course factory made, but I have had 2 traditionally made Seki swords. One text book army gunto stamped with the Seki acceptance on the tang and the other (civilian mounted) had the makers sign lacquered on to the mounts and inscribed on the tang. I believe there were more than a few Seki swords that were never stamped, like the one I had.

Hi Steve,

Regarding your Kanetoshi, are you sure the polisher did not do a ha dori hamon? I recently had a window opened on an oil quenched late war showato (in order to know if the hamon was purely fake or real even if oil quenched, also it was free), and can tell the hamon is super weak but my polisher proposed me to do a keisho with ha dori.

Chris- Like the sword you had, I have a Seki sword with no arsenal stamps on it.

Pics on this thread:

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9956&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=0

I hope it's a good thing!

Stu- I hope you get the info you need, but "mill steel gendaito" just sounds wrong to me.

The seller probably doesn't know what he is talking about...

But I'm a newb at this and don't know what I'm talking about much either!

99% of the time, seki usually means non-traditionally made. I believe there is also a difference between the normal seki stamp and a smaller version, the latter being more commonly seen on blades which are traditionally made. I guess the important thing here is buying the blade and not the nakago stamps. Until something definitive comes out, too many in the collector world believe seki=non traditionally made, and therefore it might be more difficult to resale such a blade in a pinch. But also might be a good time to stock up on good blades that are seki stamped, and wait for things to turn around...

steve: nice maru-ni san ken katabami avatar. is that your family's kamon also?

Junichi-

Yes, the maru-ni ken katabami is my family's mon as well.

I was going to ask you too!

Hi Stu,

this question of stamped or not stamped comes up from time to time. The general rule is that because in the 1930s quite passable non-gendaito swords were being made (ie. western steel, non traditional forging and quenching) and were deceiving even experienced collectors, especially as even shinshinto mei possibly shinto? mei was being cut on them to deceive, the government ordered about 1938 that a stamp to be put on ALL non-traditional swords (called gunto and showato). This was the "sho" stamp. from about 1941 the Seki swordmakers factories banded together in an association and insisted that they put on their own mark, "Seki". This was done...it is technically not an acceptance mark, but an ID mark for showato/gunto quality produced by the Seki Association.

I have two such swords by Seki Association swordsmiths without sho or seki stamps. In shape, nakago and mei style they are pure Seki gunto/showato....both, like the unstamped Ido Hidetoshi, Fukumoto Amahide and his son Kanemune swords that often appear, are signed by the same factory mei cutter guys that signed most of the Seki production. They are both known Seki gunto kaji and the mei cutting style shows they were done in the factory. However, the work in the blades shows a different, higher quality than the stamped blades...one hamon is nioi but with visible hataraki and hada, other hamon has largish nie, some hada. Why they are made differently I don't know...private order so no stamp? I don't know. Certainly they are western steel as certainly these two makers are not traditionally taught swordsmiths (Ando Kanemoto and Amaike Kanenaga...although Kanenagas brother/father was Amaike Masatsune, who gets a bit of a mention in some sources) and Seki did not have supplies of tamahagane as far as I know. They are interesting, but IMHO one would not pass up a true gendaito for one of these. They are examples of superior made Seki gunto.

Regards,

George

Don't be fooled by thinking any sword signed with Seki in it, is not a Gendaito. I have a sword signed Seki Kanenobu Which was chosen by Yoshikawa sensei, at the 2009 Sydney shinsa as the outstanding Gendai, when best of show was being presented. Unfortunately, someone had removed the date, and Yoshikawa sensei gave it reduced points due to this. I was told, that had the date not been removed, it would have scored more points than the Shigetsugu I also submitted.

I agree David...I have seen excellent gendai swords cut with "Seki " in the mei (eg Nakata Kanehide). He also signed with sometimes a star and perhaps a small seki stamp on nakago shinogi ji or mune for the arsenal forge (as per regulations), but this situation is far removed from the swords that bear the common Seki stamp we all know. I can't say I've ever seen a blade with the common Seki Association stamp on it that is true gendaito.

Geo.

hi bruno....

when he polished my sword he told me he was 100% certain it was hand made....will not be traditionally made as that means it have to be tamahagne steel...

he doesnt use hadori unless i presume someone asks for it....mine was done the old fashion way sashikomi ( spelling)

If a sword is made of mill steel then it can't be traditionally forged or qualify as a gendaito as the terms are normally used.

The term 'mill steel gendaito' originated with Fuller and Gregory to describe a sword that was handmade using traditional methods, including water quenching, but which used mill steel (or more likely, old Meiji-period railway tracks made from Swedish steel produced by the puddling process) rather than tamahagane.

Mill steel *can* be traditionally forged, and a sword can be made of mill steel using the traditional methods used for making nihonto. It doesn't make it a nihonto, but it isn't a machine-made blade either. I've got one myself - it is a bloody lethal cutter. Mind you, it's unusual - the smith was copying a Koto design.

To be a nihonto, a sword has to be made of tamahagane, be made by traditional methods and be hardened using water and yaki-ire. If one of those stipulations is not met (i.e. tamahagane is not used) then it isn't a nihonto. That doesn't however mean that it isn't a very good sword or that it wasn't handmade using traditional methods.

Kevin

Be careful Kevin, many swords made in the Shinto era, used western steel, are they Nihonto? I believe this subject was discussed on this board once before.

Be careful Kevin, many swords made in the Shinto era, used western steel, are they Nihonto? I believe this subject was discussed on this board once before.

Swords made in the shinto era with western steel used the oroshigane process along with tamahagane and forged the billet into a blade as usual. They are indeed considered nihonto.

Blades made during the war were usually made entirely of western steel, not put through oroshigane process, and usually not forged nor water quenched....not considered nihonto.

How about smiths that made their own steel, Enshin, Yoshichika etc.

How about smiths that made their own steel, Enshin, Yoshichika etc.

They are known to have used western steel though it is thought they used the oroshigane process...

OLD THREAD WARNING!!!

Updating this old discussion in case it comes up in someone's internet search.

We now know that, in response to complaints from sword manufacturers about poor showato hurting the industry's reputation, the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association agreed to perform inspections on "all" blades, although Ohmura sites a source that states gendaito were not inspected.  From a 1940 magazine, we know that the inspection stamp initially used was the Showa stamp.  We don't have documentation that explains why the large Seki stamp replaced the Showa, but it clearly did.  Dated blades with the Showa stamp range from 1935 - 1942 (3 outliers found in 1945); and the large Seki is seen on blades ranging from 1940 - 1945.  When the Army took control of all sword production in 1942, the Nagoya Army Arsenal started using the small Seki stamp, and it can be found on both showato and gendaito (mostly star-stamped RJT blades).

I have not one RJT blade with a Seki Stamp? 

Bruce did you have reference pictures of that issue that shows clear that it is a gendaito and not a showa-to and that it is a real star stamp?

I saw 2 NBTHK Hozon papered blades with a seki stamp, one was on AOI Arts. But i didn't give anything on papers  In Japan all is possible if you have enough money. 

I have a star stamped gendaito signed Seki Mistunobu that has also 2 tiny Seki stamps. It recently papered Kanteisho.

2 hours ago, vajo said:

reference pictures

Chris,

I have 14 on file.  Here they are in chart form.  I'll post pics when I have more time.  

From the Stamp Survey; Seki Stamp section ("small" means small seki stamp)

So the little seki stamp is only the date side of the nakago? 

Could that mean that the swords are forged on the Seki Forge Facilities and before they get the Star mark from the army. It would not make sense to stamp it Star and afterwards inspect it newly on the seki factories.

Process (in my thoughts)

1. The Seki forge get tamahagene for the licensed smiths.

2. The smith forged the blades in the seki forges, signed and dated it. 

3. The seki authorities check the blade and registered and stamp it (with the small seki stamp on the dates side).

4. The Army inspector collects the blades, inspect it and stamped it with the star stamp.

5. The blades goes to the outfitter shops (Polishing & Koshirae)

This is possible, Chris.  I also have plenty of star blades with "Na" and "Gifu" stamps.  All three - seki, na, & gifu - are on the mune just as often as on the sides, and sometimes on both the sides and the mune!

Ohmura states that the small seki was being used by the Nagoya Arsenal.  But your idea would still work if the Nagoya inspector was stationed at some central Seki location.  We have seen that already with the Navy Inspectors using the Tenshozan anchor stamp.  

Not sure if mine is included in the chart, however I too have a Kanehide (Aug 44) with small seki near date AND on the mune.

John C. 

@vajo I posted this excerpt from Ohmura-san on another thread, however I have highlighted a different section here. Just additional information...

"Major Oto, who supervised the production of military swords as the manager of the Nagoya Army Arsenal Sekibu Factory, described the blades made by swordsmiths in accordance with the official standards as "Army-style modern forging swords" in his memoirs. It is possible that this "formal modern forged sword" was the official name of the military.　The sword blade stems delivered to this armory are: (1) Those with only a "star" mark that has passed the Army Material Inspection (2) A "star" and a number stamp on the stem butt (3) A "star" and an inspection mark on the stem building (4) There are various types such as those with a "star" and a small "sekiin". Items made before the designation of a swordsmith or items sold directly without delivery to the armory due to special circumstances even during the period of swordsmithing will not be marked with these inspection seals, number stamps, etc. A sword that does not have the date of manufacture cut on the back of the stem is not a sword that has been once delivered to the armory, even if it is a standard sword of the swordsmith. In addition, "non-standard swords" that greatly deviated from the tolerance range of the dimensional standards indicated by the specifications and drawings, such as being important, deeply warped, or too heavy, were not delivered to the armory, but were sold directly to sword dealers and officers. Of course, these are not stamped with stars or numbers."  

John C.

Thanks a lot. That was new to me.

On 4/20/2011 at 5:35 PM, David Flynn said:

Don't be fooled by thinking any sword signed with Seki in it, is not a Gendaito. I have a sword signed Seki Kanenobu Which was chosen by Yoshikawa sensei, at the 2009 Sydney shinsa as the outstanding Gendai, when best of show was being presented. Unfortunately, someone had removed the date, and Yoshikawa sensei gave it reduced points due to this. I was told, that had the date not been removed, it would have scored more points than the Shigetsugu I also submitted.

also please remind them of the RJT uses of sho stamps on nakago munes

The next one stumble about this and think every Seki Showa-to is a Gendaito. 

First off all try to judge the blade. If it doesn't look like gendai it is not gendai no matter what the stamps, signature and dates say.