A question on Yari spear tip sizes.

[kusunokimasahige]

Great and interesting photos lads !

 

The Uchine reminds me a little of the Plumbata arrow in use by the late 2nd -4th century AD Roman army which was a vicious hand thrown weapon :

 

 

 

 

 

Also the lengths of the blades do not seem to be so different

 

Top is a spearhead, bottom plumbata head.

Note: in Cm.

 

 

The depicted palanquin yari is interesting because of the addition of the two metal bars to parry sword strikes, a little like the side bar on the jitte.

 

KM

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

The depicted palanquin yari is interesting because of the addition of the two metal bars to parry sword strikes, a little like the side bar on the jitte.

 

Hadome, not unusual...

 

From Knutsen's book :

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

For your education

 

Thanks Eric, I was aware of this (hence my edit) and now I know you're too.

[IanB]

I am starting to see things that is a little worrying. About two months ago, a rather up-market auction house near me had an Arms and Militaria sale with a short pillow spear illustrated in the catalogue similar to some of the items I am seeing here. It had a fully lacquered shaft in nashiji lacquer, nashiji saya with gold kamon and gilded mounts. The habaki appeared to be shakudo and the whole assembly looked fabulous. Anyway, off I trotted to view, getting very excited about the prospect of adding something spectacular to my collection. But, when I examined it it was too good to be true. The shaft and saya looked like fine quality nashiji, the tachibana kamon was done in gold lacquer and the head was a nice looking sankaku shape. I didn't see the tang, but what gave it away to me was the habaki. It was copper coloured with a modern chemical blackening. I know what this looks like because I've done it myself. In addition the whole thing was just not heavy enough for the shaft to be made of kashi. It was a very clever and expensive fake over which someone had taken the greatest care. It was just too pristine. For an object pretending to be at least 150 - 200 years old, the lacquer was too smooth and unscratched, there was absolutely no tarnish or scratches on the mounts. Somebody liked it since it went for big money at the sale - but it wasn't me. Now I am seeing a similar item within a few months - hence my worry.

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

I am starting to see things that is a little worrying.

Ian, so I am not the only one I see. About 6 months ago I to saw an extraordinary golden yari of the same type pictured, it was in Japan and it to had the double hadome. While everyone wants items in pristine condition there is to much of a good thing. It finally sold for a good price but I remember wondering at the time why it did not sell for considerably more. I prefer the lower grade items for the most part but this did catch the eye, evidently other people had reservations as well as it sold for no more then a good old plain in good shape complete yari.

[kusunokimasahige]

I agree with and share both your worries.

 

The same is going on in many other militaria auctions, fakes are sold as genuine, especially medals these days have become almost untouchable. Same goes for some helmets which were worn by my eastern neighbours etc...

 

I read in the other yari thread that a Japanese seller has them (the tips at least) made nearby. Now i do not mind that very much as long as i can get some fakes cheap for reenactment use, but when it starts gettin more and more intricate and the prices are reaching those of genuine ones i worry too. Same with bid shilling as well as sniping, i cant stand that either.

 

Really need to get the Knutsen book soon !

 

KM

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Never stated it was a genuine masterpiece. I stated it fit better the "palanquin yari" description.

Everything in that Yari looks new and the blade looks very poor in front of the mounting. The Hadome is a not functional, cathing-eyes addition.

However, *this* is how palanquin Yari should look like.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

BTW, Ian, there is (was?) one in nashiji inside the golden palanquin exposed in Cà Pesaro, but I'm not aware of any pics of it.

 

Maybe that as a curator you stumpled in one (pic of it) ?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Heres a mounted yari that is only 46" long - blade is 4 1/2" so maybe it is one of the smaller kind for inside a palaquin

 

Hi Doctor. Seems we share the same pics database .

 

Guess I mixed up some pic as last one belongs to the yari you post . Sorry.

 

Not sure the "standard" Ishizuki in your pics belongs to Kago Yari mount. But it might be smaller than I suppose.

 

[estcrh]

Heres a mounted yari that is only 46" long - blade is 4 1/2" so maybe it is one of the smaller kind for inside a palaquin

That is around 4 ft or about 1.3 meters, still fairly long for a Palanquin spear I would think, just judging from the few Palaquin interiors I have seen. Here is another yari of the same size. An older blade refitted at some point in time. I have read that this size yari was used as a household weapon, and that the ones for use on a horse would have a loop attached to the pole at some point to secure the yari from dropping, any info on this?

 

[Mark Green]

Hi Gang,

I have always thought that palanquin yari were just late period export gimmicks. While I'm sure a few old yari were cut down to fit inside (whatever), I would doubt very much, that a whole lot of these were made for that purpose.

That may be why most that you see for sale are very pristine looking.

They just don't make a lot of sense. If you are rich and powerful enough to be carried in a Palanquin, why wouldn't you have a few retainers that were armed. Plus, I doubt that someone could use a 2-3 ft yari on a stick better then a sword of some kind. In a Palanquin, you are just a sitting duck. while a few ladies may have had some of these, I still believe that the whole "Palanquin Yari" gimmick was just a spiff way of selling off the thousands of yari hanging around when modern weapons came to Japan.

A lot of people kept old cutdown yari by the door for home defence. Many likely still do. I recommend this for anyone.

Mark G

[kusunokimasahige]

I recommend this for anyone.

Mark G

 

I would not.

 

At least in our country there is a law that says, yes you may defend yourself in your own house, but as soon as you use lethal force it will be you who sees the inside of a prison, except if it was deemed ok as proper self defence by a judge. It is called appropriate / reasonable violence here. Go above that, and you are done for.

 

KM

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

while a few ladies may have had some of these,

 

The palanquin in Museo d'Arte Orientale is, indeed, for a lady.

I can't dismiss the option of "export items" as the collection Enrico di Borbone put together in 1887 had and still have such items (as most XIX century collections).

My feeling is Kago Yari were of no practical use, status symbols or at best just a sort of insurance for filty riches (possibly ladies only, not supposed to carry swords), sensibly shorter and more elaborated than usual cut-down yari out there.

 

Anyway the term exists and needed a pic. I' be grateful if anybody can post a surely legitimate item (or evidences of their export-item nature).

[kusunokimasahige]

A katana or wakizashi next to your bedside like the bushi had also works xD...

 

But lets not get too sidetracked here, this thread is great as it is...

 

Have two more yari i tips am bidding on, lost out on one when sniped.... [Fakes no doubt so low bids...]

 

And i dont want Keith to be waiting too long for his Naginata o-kane xD

 

KM

[estcrh]

Two more yari, these are being labeled as "kago", any thoughts? http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz23 ... ?start=all

 

 

Superb antique kago yari with fukuro tip, signed Nobukuni. It has a very nice wooden pole with a nice patina and great iron ishizushi. It also has a saya protector for the blade and is in terriffic condition. size: cutting edge: 10cm total blade: 20cm mounted: 127cm

 

 

 

Size:135cm Theme:Kago Yari

Material:Iron wood snake skin

[sanjuro]

First one maybe........ looks 'Japanese' on the surface at least. Second one very suspicious......possibly Indonesian African or a straight up fake. The tip looks as if it could be anything but Japanese. I wouldnt really trust either of them to be honest, at least not without a lot more pictures of the stripped down weapon. The second one looks as if it has a fixed blade, and If it cant be stripped down to reveal the nakago then it aint Japanese is it?

[Bugyotsuji]

Agreed with sanjuro's opinion above.

 

The first looks like it has been reassembled, cobbled together somehow. The E looks cut down. The Saya looks genuine. The Ishi-tsuki is hard to see, but it looks modern to my eye.

 

No idea what the second is supposed to be.

 

As with a Kago-zutsu, (Kago gun) any weapon carried in a proper Norimono (Kago) would tend to have been of beautiful quality and decoration, as befitted a Daimyo, etc. Eg lacquered haft, etc.

[estcrh]

The Ishi-tsuki is hard to see, but it looks modern to my eyes

These are or were in Japan, just examples of what is being called "kago" yari. I have no idea about the second one either, looks like some hill people got a hold of it. The first one is hard to figure out, enough real parts to leave some doubt. The cord going through the ishi-tsuki is what I have seen being referred to as a yari meant for use on horse back, no idea if that has any truth, maybe someone else does.

 

[estcrh]

Speaking of Palaquin, does anyone need a cool dog house or a kids play house or? There is one that is for sale in Japan, shipping could be a bit of a problem though but the price is right, only 1,000,000 yen.

http://www.jauce.com/view2.php?seturl=h ... j133058513

 

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Lovely example of a Norimono. On display in a ... museum? Satsuma?

 

(One word of warning to anyone bidding! The seller is in Fukushima and says that he cannot ship the goods until the freight system is up and running again, although he adds you could go there and collect it. Hope it's not a scam.)

[sanjuro]

Eric.

 

Any more detailed pics of the first yari blade and nakago (or is it a hoko style)? I'm starting to believe this may just be a half decent Mid Edo horseman's yari. The ebu is sixteen faceted which is reasonably swish. The ishidzuki seems to be a plain edo period piece but good quality, as does the saya and the reinforcing mounts at the mouth of the ebu. Its possible this one might be OK.

[estcrh]

Lovely example of a Norimono. On display in a ... museum? Satsuma?

 

(One word of warning to anyone bidding! The seller is in Fukushima and says that he cannot ship the goods until the freight system is up and running again, although he adds you could go there and collect it. Hope it's not a scam.)

 

Piers, are you sure it does not say "Free kago yari with every Norimono purchased"

 

Keith, you saw the faceted pole to, very interesting. I wish there were more pictures, I posted every picture that I saved on my photobucket, I did email the person who owns or owned it a few weeks ago to see if there was any more info or pictures of it, they had just returned to Japan right after the earthquake and were quite upset, they said they would let me know when things settled down, I will post any pictures that I do get in the future.

 

This shows why it is so hard sometimes to verify the authenticity of objects, with out really good photographs of the right parts it is almost impossible sometimes short of actually having it in hand to be certain that you are not being fooled.

[Bugyotsuji]

One further point I forgot to mention. Spears are very hard to sell in Japan today. Few people have houses large enough to display them. When dealers will find genuine untouched Yari in a Kura for example, they may immediately consider cutting them down for a) ease of transport and b) sale, whether domestically or internationally. They will use the original fitments and replace them onto the shortened haft.

 

Keith/Eric, are the two Ishi-dzuki above the same? (The one cut off, far right of the shot, and the one close-up with the leather thong.) If they are, then I retract my comment above about being modern. In the second pic it looks much better!

[estcrh]

Keith/Eric, are the two Ishi-dzuki above the same? (The one cut off, far right of the shot, and the one close-up with the leather thong.) If they are, then I retract my comment above about being modern. In the second pic it looks much better!

Piers, they are the same. Thats what I mean about pictures, you need the right shots.

 

I was wondering if there was a chance that the second yari pictured was maybe an Ainu item or something for hunting?

 

[sanjuro]

Piers.

 

I think they are the same. The full length picture has a bit of a stutter at the end of it where it was cropped and part of another picture has intruded on the image, if you blow up the picture and disregard the lousy cropping, it appears to be the same as the larger version that Eric posted.

 

Eric.

 

The second yari...... Was what we were shown originally a yari with its saya on and this latest picture has the saya removed? If so, then its an entirely different kettle of fish. The last pic looks like a real yari blade but in a very second rate mounting, possibly a cobbled together job.

[estcrh]

Eric.

 

The second yari...... Was what we were shown originally a yari with its saya on and this latest picture has the saya removed? If so, then its an entirely different kettle of fish. The last pic looks like a real yari blade but in a very second rate mounting, possibly a cobbled together job.

I dont know keith, it has a unusual look for sure but maybe made for a purpose? And it appears to have some age.

 

As for the one that Carlo thought was more like an uchine..on close inspection maybe not?

 

This picture looks like the end was made for thrusting.

 

 

Compare this to the uchine underneath it. Approximately 79.3cm long 拵全 lance body

 

[sanjuro]

Not a uchine.... at least not identifiably so, but Carlo has a point that it has the look of a javelin like weapon. But fluff and feathers do not alone make an uchine. The shaft length and the butt being grooved across to accomodate a cord would be expected on an uchine.

 

The grooved butt on this last photograph looks like it may have been intended to be inserted into something hollow. (rifle barrel????????) like a plug bayonet. The damn thing reminds of an Asagai. Cant really say for sure, mostly because it looks like some sort of hybrid weapon. Snake skin makes me think African. I dont recall having seen a snake skin covering on anything Japanese. Isnt there some sort of negative connotation concerning snakes in Japanese mythology? Whatever it is, I dont think its Japanese/Ainu/Emishi in origin. I cant really add much more than this in the way of enlightenment.

 

One thing puzzles me.... Are the last two photographs posted previously of the same weapon, one with saya on and one with saya off? Or, is that horrible thing with the circular cutouts in it, the blade itself.

[estcrh]

Are the last two photographs posted previously of the same weapon, one with saya on and one with saya off? Or, is that horrible thing with the circular cutouts in it, the blade itself.

 

What I was saying about the small yari is that it is of a SIZE that would actually fit inside of a Palanquin. It is in Japan and is labeled as having something to do with Palaquins. I do not think that a 4 foot long yari would really work inside those rather confined quarters.

 

 

The object with the cut out areas is the saya. By the way, that may not be snake skin. I have had reptile skin items before and it looks like a type of Crocodilian skin not snake skin.

[sanjuro]

Ah! the mist clears...... So we have an apparently Japanese blade mounted in an unjapanese style.

Although I still doubt its ethnicity, it appears then to be a bit of an odd ball.

[Bugyotsuji]

It's possible that having lost its Ishi-dzuki someone has hammered something onto it. Ishi-dzuki are quite hard to find and not cheap when you do find one.