Yokoyama Kzuke Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada ??

[Link]

I'm wondering on this mei, it just looks a bit off in the pics. but from what I have found the only mei close to the one on this sword is Yokoyama Sukesada from edo period. Does any one know of a smith that signed "Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada" ? And what is the Junin in the "Bishu Osafune Junin" ? I'm not going to bid on this sword as I don't know enough to start droping big money on ebay items (I'm looking for a Koto Bizen blade). I guess I'll need to buy a hawleys book the 3 books I have are more for learning the basics of nihonto so for the moment I'm curious and looking for a little help. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0330779854

Thanks in advance

[Brian]

Larry,

I am not sure exactly what you are asking.

The sword is signed Bishu Osafune Ju nin....Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada which is exactly how that smith signed.

Whether or not it is gimei is another story altogether, but this smith is well known and signed that way. I have one too with this signature, and if you search the forum, you will see others.

http://www.google.co.za/search?hl=en&q= ... =&aq=f&oq=

What was the question again?

 

Brian

 

PS - As for the junin part, read here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4279

[Link]

I could not find that full name in the 3 books I have unless the english version is shortened (I can't read the Japanese) maybe in the book I have the Yokoyama Sukesada (page 269 connoisseur's book of Japanese swords) is really Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada in Japanese ? I am looking for a Koto Bizen sword and was trying to match the smith to a period and the closet I found was Yokoyama Sukesada so my question is, is Yokoyama Sukesada the same smith as Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada ? It sounds like they are so I'm thinking this is a shinto blade.

Thanks

[John A Stuart]

There isn't a doubt, in my mind, that this is a shinto period sword. It doesn't seem to be in too bad of a condition. The pics show an interesting hamon, but, no great detail. Still and all, if I liked this school in this period and I was confident of the signature, I would be tempted to investigate further. If you are going for an older period smith, this isn't it. John

 

SUKESADA KÔZUKE NO DAIJÔ [KANBUN 1661 BIZEN] SHINTÔ JÔSAKU

His common name is Heibei, and he is the grandson of Nagamasa Yosôzaemon in the sixth generation. He is the son of Hichibei Sukesada, and he received the title of Kôzuke no Daijô in Kanbun Yonen (1664). It is thought that both his works and his succession to the name (Sukesada) began from this time. He died at the age of 89 in the winter of Jôkyô Rokunen (1689).

Signatures: BISHÛ OSAFUNE JÛ YOKOYAMA KÔZUKE NO DAIJÔ FUJIWARA SUKESADA

YOKOYAMA KÔZUKE NO DAIJÔ FUJIWARA SUKESADA

BIZEN KUNI OSAFUNE JÛ SUKESADA

YOKOYAMA KÔZUKE NO KAMI FUJIWARA SUKESADA

Plate I: KANBUN ROKUNEN NIGATSU KICHIJITSU

Plate II: BISHÛ OSAFUNE JÛ YOKOYAMA KÔZUKE NO DAIJÔ FUJIWARA SUKESADA

[YukouYukimura]

I could not find that full name in the 3 books I have unless the english version is shortened (I can't read the Japanese) maybe in the book I have the Yokoyama Sukesada (page 269 connoisseur's book of Japanese swords) is really Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada in Japanese ? I am looking for a Koto Bizen sword and was trying to match the smith to a period and the closet I found was Yokoyama Sukesada so my question is, is Yokoyama Sukesada the same smith as Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada ? It sounds like they are so I'm thinking this is a shinto blade.

Thanks

 

 

Why are you looking for a koto bizen sword? (just curious as I don't even know what koto bizen means) But, One of the swords I bought was advertised as a Koto bizen katana.

[John A Stuart]

Tyler, Koto refers to the period before 1600 (for simplicity). Sometimes when the word koto is added to the description of a sword it adds the magic of antiquity, giving the romance of age. I am afraid I have that penchant. The thing is there were many swords of the gokaden that were lower quality, forged to meet high demand and are not art swords, but, still swords of good craft. What I'm saying is, one shouldn't limit one's self by a number, but, be open to the art of the sword in all it's guises. John

[Link]

I could not find that full name in the 3 books I have unless the english version is shortened (I can't read the Japanese) maybe in the book I have the Yokoyama Sukesada (page 269 connoisseur's book of Japanese swords) is really Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada in Japanese ? I am looking for a Koto Bizen sword and was trying to match the smith to a period and the closet I found was Yokoyama Sukesada so my question is, is Yokoyama Sukesada the same smith as Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada ? It sounds like they are so I'm thinking this is a shinto blade.

Thanks

 

 

Why are you looking for a koto bizen sword? (just curious as I don't even know what koto bizen means) But, One of the swords I bought was advertised as a Koto bizen katana.

 

The reason is I have a very beautiful shinto katana and a Bizen wak. mei is Sukesada from the late muromachi period an ok blade but it is one of the lesser quality mass produced swords from that era so to expand my (tiny) collection I'm looking for a sword that really stands out as a Bizen prob. late 1400's early 1500's. "Koto" covers hundreds of years so I guess I should be more detailed.

 

Thanks again for the replies, next time I'll do a search prior to posting up !

[Brian]

Just a friendly reminder to the newcommers (and we all do this sometimes..)

Ko-to means early sword, and Shin-to means new sword (the word "to" being sword)

So saying "a Koto sword" is incorrect as you are saying an early sword sword.

Of course the same applies to Shin-Shinto, gendaito, shinsakuto, Gunto etc etc.

 

Brian

[kusunokimasahige]

Same with the older sword fencing styles...

 

ko-budo

ko-ryu

 

KM

[Eric H]

Some notes on Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Sukesada

 

He is a son of Osafune Shichibei no Jo Sukesada who had been active between the Sho-o and Kanbun Eras (1652-1673) and one of the leading Osafune smiths of Shinto times. He is said to have been borne in 1633 and was titled Kozuke Daijo in 1664 but the detail of his career as swordsmith before 1664 is uncertain. There are his extant works with the production years between the Kanbun and Kyoho Era and it is said that he died in 1721 at the age of 89. He made Kanbun-Shinto-sugata with shallow sori and normal mihaba also less tapering sugata with deep sori and extended chu-kissaki in the style of the Genroku Era. He often made sugata with thick kasane and occasionally forged dense and visible ko-itame hada with ji-nie and chikei. He tempered sugu yakidashi that becomes wider as it goes upward and favoured a hamon in fukushiki (round gunome with ko-gunome and ko-ashi, split yakigashira or yahazu-ba). The boshi is sugu (occasionally midare-komi) than turns back in ko-maru.

The production date is occasionally seen on the ura.

 

Incidentally, there are so many fakes of Kozuke Daijo Sukesada. They appear to have been made since old days and it proves that this smith had been highly

appreciated since the Edo period.

 

Eric

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Eric, the one you show, is it shoshin?

[Eric H]

Jacques, it's a Katana from my collection with Tokubetsu Kicho Origami.

 

Eric

[DirkO]

 

From my Yokoyama Kozuke Daijo Sukesada wakizashi, also with Tokubetso Kicho Origami

[Guido]

Perfect timing for yet another "which is Shôshin, which is Gimei?" exercise like Reinhard posted a short while ago. The examples I attached are from the same magazine ("Me no Me") Reinhard used, an article written by Mr. Tanobe of the NBTHK. One is genuine, the other is not.

[DirkO]

First thoughts : I'm somewhat hesitant about these 2 kanji, for me the left one (so the one with red squares) is the shoshin one. The left mei is more squared and concise whereas the right one doesn't seem to portray the same attention to the mei. I'll check my books at home later to provide more support to my opinion.

 

Edit : I checked some books and for me the "blocklike" printing on the left one (kaishotai ?) seems to be the shoshin one. But seeing this is quite obvious, I'm probably wrong :lol: Also the butt of the nakago seems a bit off compared to shoshin examples.

[Link]

Just a friendly reminder to the newcommers (and we all do this sometimes..)

Ko-to means early sword, and Shin-to means new sword (the word "to" being sword)

So saying "a Koto sword" is incorrect as you are saying an early sword sword.

Of course the same applies to Shin-Shinto, gendaito, shinsakuto, Gunto etc etc.

 

Brian

 

 

Thanks, I've seen many adds that say "Koto sword" and not really knowing any better I wasn't paying attention or thinking about the translation/meaning of koto.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I think the left one is shoshin.

[Link]

Hi,

 

I think the left one is shoshin.

 

 

What can you tell from the pic. ? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0330779854 I'm new at this but the mei on Erics (nice looking sword!) blade looks much "cleaner" or more defined like it was done with care & skill the one on the ebay sword looks a bit "rough" or done with a heavy hand. If any body has the time I'd like to hear your opinion on the ebay swords mei.

Thanks

[Brian]

Larry,

That is the same as the one you asked about in the first post.

Frankly, I don't think you are going to get much comment about the mei. It isn't good form to keep commenting on this seller's items and I am going to discourage it from now on.

It is well known by most buyers that all items there should be treated as gimei or unproven unless the seller says otherwise. He clears out swords from Japan that have already been "vetted" so to speak. Big names = gimei, old papers = subsequently questioned. Still some very good deals there, and great swords.

So assume it is gimei, which doesn't mean it isn't a good sword. Mei means very little usually unless you collect signatures and not blades.

It takes entire books to learn how to spot gimei, and you aren't going to nail it by looking at a few bad pics.

Many shoshin signatures are the ones that are written badly, and the gimei ones are strong and bold. No set rules, and that's why it takes years of study to identify them.

We can always guess, but it really is a dodgy call anyways, and as long as people know that any calls here can be wrong, we will be fine.

 

Brian

[Link]

Brain, I wasn't trying to step on any toes here or hurt a sellers rep. (I'm not sure what your implying) I have no interest in buying anything off ebay. I was just interested in this sword and mei. I apologize to any one who took this the wrong way and if this thread is hurting some ones business then by all means delete this thread.

[reinhard]

Brain, I wasn't trying to step on any toes

 

Well, sometimes the brain doesn't know where the toes are. - Guido's quiz could be a nice learning experience for you. A much better one, anyway, than dozens of poor eBay pics will ever be.

 

reinhard

[Guido]

Dirk and Jacques are both right, die left Nakago is Shôshin. The key point is how "sada", the last Kanji, is written - more precisely, how the 7'th and 8'th stokes are arranged. the Forgerer used the "correct" form in which the last stroke starts at the line of the 7'th stroke, while Sukesada started the 8'th stroke a little earlier so it crosses the 7'th stroke. Talk about the devil being in the details ...

[Link]

Dirk and Jacques are both right, die left Nakago is Shôshin. The key point is how "sada", the last Kanji, is written - more precisely, how the 7'th and 8'th stokes are arranged. the Forgerer used the "correct" form in which the last stroke starts at the line of the 7'th stroke, while Sukesada started the 8'th stroke a little earlier so it crosses the 7'th stroke. Talk about the devil being in the details ...

 

Well I was going to take Reinhards advice & try & figure this out which probably would have led to at least another dumb ass post by yours truly..... Guido you saved me from being spanked again ! Regardless I picked up some more insight from this thread.

Thanks to all