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Posted

“Is it a Masamune tanto,” as in the Masamune? No, no, and no.

 

“It belonged to the Tokugawa family and was owned by Yuki Hideyasu.” Based on what provenance?

 

Hoanh

Posted

The piece appears to be no earlier shinshinto (late Edo). While it has an aoi-mon carved into the nakago, obviously meant to align with Tokugawa ownership, it is not very skillfully carved. What is the documentation you have which establishes its provenance?

  • Like 1
Posted

A nice Shin Shinto tanto, however it is no Masamune. Have a close look at this picture and see what similarities you can link between your dagger and an original Masamune? One of the first things you will learn about Japanese swords is trusted dealers are few and far between, and most of the good ones post on this board. Beyond those good sellers I would want to be very careful and hope to know more than enough to be dangerous because there are lots of "Masamune swords owned by the Tokugawa" out there from seemingly reputable dealers. Applying Occams Razor to any sword you are looking to purchase is a good start and will hopefully prevent any purchases you may come to regret in the future.

 

post-3926-0-44685400-1568350788_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted

Not even close.
Agree, appears to be a Shinshinto piece. Mon looks Dremelled, not carved. But either way, not a terrible piece but not a masterpiece. It would need a shinsa to say who made it.

Posted

The object in question sort of wants to pass as Yasutsugu... I doubt the intent of engraving the mon was even to show it belonged to Tokugawa. I might be wrong and hope to be corrected in this case, but I did not see (apart obviously from very many Yasutsugu) swords in Tokugawa (either Mito or Owari) collections with mon engraved on nakago to demonstrate ownership. Its not really Japanese tradition to do so.

Papers, signatures on hako are places where the ownership is often stated, sometimes one gets to see signatures chiseled on nakago saying this is owned by such and such, but engraving mon is just not the thing. Habaki can have mon. Hako can have mons.

 

Mon on nakago typically means a shinto smith who was given the right to engrave such mon.

 

Kirill R.

  • Like 1
Posted

In the real world I generally agree with you Kirill. It seems that this tanto may have some sort of fabricated provenance though. I would like to know a bit more about what that provenance is (verbal, origami, etc). I do not see it outside the realm of possibility that an aoi-mon was added to support a claim of Tokugawa denrai, but the details around this sword are unclear. We do see that aoi-mon appear as a sort of 'marketing gimmick' on the koshirae of many low-quality, late export pieces.

 

Photo of the Kokuho Kikkou Sadamune attached (亀甲貞宗). Once a possession of the Owari Tokugawa, the mon on the nakago is believed to be associated with ownership of the sword.

 

post-457-0-43228900-1568393956_thumb.jpeg

  • Like 3
Posted

Actually the seller claimed Echizen Yasutsugu to be the maker for Yuki Hideyasu of Tokugawa, I questioned if it was Masamune since the Tokugawa owned his blades, from my reading.  So maybe you are all onto something?

 

Jon B.

Posted

This is a torokusho to which Ray referred in your other thread. Just legal sword registration papers and does not attest to the authenticity of the mei and is not provenance.

 

Hoanh

 

 

Ray said:

 

"A number of Kyodai Original's swords are shown with small pieces of paper called torokusho. I want to point out that these are not authentication papers, they do not provide verification of the signature, confirm provenance, indicate quality, etc. They are only licenses for the swords to reside legally in Japan."

  • Like 4
Posted

I don’t like this kind of sugata, but the hada is not bad neither the hamon. What is important is that you were not lead to pay a price based upon forged infos.

 

No Tokugawa would have accepted such a blade.

Posted

Thanks! I had very vague recollection concerning mons being engraved, but sort of dismissed it... Went through some books and indeed saw a number of higher end blades signed by mon - in all cases the signature was so worn out it probably dates to Momoyama or such. Long old tachi blades.

 

Kirill R.

Posted

Jon,

 

Just so you are not wasting your cycles with the auction company, ask them:

 

1. What would they accept as legitimate appraisals? NBTHK papers?

2. What is their appraisal in claiming authenticity of their swords?

 

NBTHK appraisals are expensive and time-consuming. Until you get clear answers from them, it’s not clear how to proceed.

 

Hoanh

  • Like 1
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