loose Tsuba fix?

[kotkinjs1]

Hi all,

I recently picked up my first officer Type 98. What I didn't expect is that the Tsuba is very loose. There are 5 seppa - 2 in front and 3 behind the tsuba. Is it a matter of simply adding more seppa of the correct type and order to tighten up the fit? Thank you!  - Jeremy

[Logan09]

How big is the gap? You can use a piece of leather cut out like a seppa. It's no guarantee that another one will be the correct thickness either.

 

Finding the correct Seppa for these are kind of a pain to find. I myself am still looking for some for mine.

[kotkinjs1]

Thanks Logan; I'll take some photos later this evening and show what seppa there are. Maybe you can tell which might be missing. I think there's supposed to be an order, right?

[Logan09]

More knowledgeable people will chime in on that. I'm not really a Gunto person. But I believe there is supposed to be 4, 6 or 8 seppa. But I have seen them with 3, and 5. Not sure if that is correct though.

[Shamsy]

They have as many or as few seppa as necessary. Simply add more of the correct size and material as required. Or make a leather one yourself.

[kotkinjs1]

Ok, took it apart. There was a bamboo paper insert inside the grip that when I aligned better (?) - more forward inside the grip - it fits a little tighter and there is less play at the tsuba. Still noticeable bit not so loose as before. That being said I guess if I matched up the number (3 and 3) maybe that would be all it needs.

Except now after I put it back together the scabbard doesn't fit as tight when fully closed against the tsuba. I don't know what the relationship is with the seppa and tsuba that I removed and reinstalled but I can't see why the scabbard wouldn't fit as tight now.

Here's some photos and thanks for the ideas so far!

[PNSSHOGUN]

Well the fact you don't have a locking latch helps as you won't have to fit any seppa. Either make a leather one or buy a few from ebay/members. To be perfectly honest I'm not 100% certain you have an authentic Gunto on your hands but the late war ones can be pretty crude.

[Bruce Pennington]

Jeremy,

 

I'm with John on this. I hope you got it for a really cheap price, or if you paid market rates ($900-1,200), you can return it. It's a mess.

 

The ito (cloth wrap) looks new and poorly wrapped; the same' (rayskin under wrap) is black, which is a navy color (army is white); all the metal parts look incredibly cheap, though certain details seem correct that fakers usually get wrong (hence John's thoughts on 'late war'); Type 98's have latches unless they are fitted with leather covered combat saya; and finally, though pictures can be decieving, the hamon (temper line) look acid etched. The nakago (tang) is really poor for a Japanese-made blade also.

 

If you are keeping this, you can find batches of seppa for sale on fleaBay. I've bought a couple of groups myself, and fitted some to loose gunto of my own.

 

I'm not trying to be rude or harsh, just letting you know what you've got there so you can decide what to do next.

[IJASWORDS]

I'm with both John and Bruce , if you are looking for a genuine gunto, keep looking . 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Has anyone come across other original solid Gunto Tsuba like that before? I have this one on an unusual Koshirae:

[IJASWORDS]

Please post photos of koshirae . 

[PNSSHOGUN]

From this topic, still makes me scratch my head. The Tsunagi is made for it, everything is high quality and fits like a glove: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/25427-anyone-seen-a-koshirae-like-this/

 

 

[IJASWORDS]

I remember this from a previous discussion . It always struck me as "too good, too new". The bottom of the  Saya, the most difficult to reproduce , looks like it is cut and glued from an older one . But hey, nothing is a surprise with gunto koshirae. 

[ChrisW]

I've seen that listing, it is rather suspicious.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Yes the leather cover is new in my opinion, the Saya underneath is older with rattan wrap. My thoughts are new leather cover, added Ashi over the top and original bottom leather piece. Everything else seems original and of high quality. Lots of questions we will probably never answer.

[Dave R]

 To me the sword at the top of the thread is a "bitser" possibly with an older blade. Shin Gunto mounts are normally finished with a copper plating, except for a gilded tsuba.... with the exception of our old friends the "mystery swords", which also had black same!

 

 Have you put the tang up on the translation or nihonto sections of this forum? If you do, check out rules for posting tangs first.

[SteveM]

Yoshiharu, maybe?

 

義治

[Mark]

Jeremy

 

I see you are in FL. I will be at the Orlando sword show this weekend. I can bring my spare seppa and you can see if one will work for you, i have dozens of seppa, gunto and civilian. stop bye my table and ask

[Bruce Pennington]

Jeremy,

Mark's offer is a good idea.

 

I will say I've seen a Mantetsu blade with a nakago far more eaten away and misshapen than this, yet it was a legit Mantetsu. So your blade could be legit. If so, like others have pointed out, this could be a "put-together" or as a minimum, the tsuka (handle) was redone in recent times. I would lean to the latter option as all the metal fittings seem to be made by the same manufacturer and not thrown together from various parts.

 

Yoshiharu, maybe?

 

義治

Steve, you're a good translator, what do you think of the mei? Does it appear original and legit Japanese?

 

John,

Your example looks legit and very good quality, even if both sets of koshirae were bittsers, the tsuba and seppa seem origninal. The implication is that there WERE gunto during the war using this. Original, pre-WWII samurai rigs didn't use retention clips or leather straps/snaps, they used friction from the habaki. So, it's possible some family blades were refitted for the war in this manner. Of course, another option is that these were made from the manufacturer without latch holes so that the fitters at arsenals could cut their own depending upon the needs of each rig. Unused, uncut tsubas might have been found in shops after the war and sold on the collector market, picked up by a bittser hobbyist and, viola!, we have mystery gunto.

 

All in all, an unknown.

[Logan09]

As to the OPs sword I question this myself. Someone attempted to drill 3 mekugi-ana and only succeeded in one. Which is way, way below the standard "3 finger" placement.

[SteveM]

I have some doubts because of the drill hole. Its placed such that it cuts off half of the second kanji. The right half looks like 治, but when I compare it to the 治 oshigata from Richard Stein's site, the visible bit on Jeremy's sword is a bit different from the oshigata. It seems an authentic Japanese sword, and the Yoshi (義) is fine, so that feels OK to me. I just don't know exactly what the second kanji is, and its annoying that the hole obliterates half of the kanji. That, together with the slightly random parts, makes me wonder if its assembled from parts obtained after the war (as others have suggested). 

[Dave R]

 I once had a stack of plain unpierced Gunto Tsuba from a school friend, which he had from his father.... 1971 - 72, hard to remember detail that far back. Finished but not gilded. My guess is that they came from a factory in Japan.

 

 Ohmura illustrates Shin-Gunto and Kai-Gunto without tabs or clips.