Christian tsuba & 4 symbols

[TBKY]

Hi everyone,

 

I need some advice about this tsuba:

 

 

It seems to be a tsuba made for a Christian. It is certainly unusual, but I found other pieces on this page.

My question is about the 4 symbols on this tsuba:

Shitake (kind of mushroom) - Kumo (cloud) - Hiotan (gourd) -Chyochin (traditional lantern).

 

Anyone have any idea about the meaning of these symbols ?

[Brian]

Hi Thomas (Please remember to sign posts with a name)

 

That one looks quite interesting, and all I can say for now is that it really begs for more pics.

Do you have any access to further pics showing more detail?

 

Regards,

Brian

[docliss]

Dear Thomas

 

I am afraid that, like you, I know of no link between the four objects depicted in negative silhouette on your tsuba. I am generally very sceptical about the tendency of many collectors to leap upon a Christian influence to justify any vaguely cruciform element in a tsuba’s design. But the presence of a fukurin on your tsuba does suggest that it might, at some stage, have been deliberately reduced from its original form to its present cruciform shape. Perhaps, on this occasion, my scepticism is unfounded.

 

Regards, John L.

[Bugyotsuji]

Dear Thomas

 

I am afraid that, like you, I know of no link between the four objects depicted in negative silhouette on your tsuba. I am generally very sceptical about the tendency of many collectors to leap upon a Christian influence to justify any vaguely cruciform element in a tsuba’s design. But the presence of a fukurin on your tsuba does suggest that it might, at some stage, have been deliberately reduced from its original form to its present cruciform shape. Perhaps, on this occasion, my scepticism is unfounded.

 

Regards, John L.

 

Tsuba in general are roundish, just about exactly the right size to protect the clenched fist 360 degrees from a sword cut. It struck me that the cross-shaped tsuba above would not offer that protection.

[Bugyotsuji]

My imagination is playing with those 4 symbols and hidden meanings.

 

The word Christian was pronounced Ki-ri-shi-tan, in 4 syllables.

 

The last two, shi and tan, could be symbolized by the shiitake and hyoutan.

 

Could the first two be expressed in some way that the represent Ki and Ri?

 

Ku for Kumo might at a stretch give Ku of Kurusu or cross. Kiri is mist... (Kuristo = Kirisuto)

 

But what words are there to express lantern? "Bon-bori".............?

[TBKY]

Thanks for your reply.

My Japanese friend who owns this Tsuba is sure that it was made for a Christian.

 

My imagination is playing with those 4 symbols and hidden meanings.

 

The word Christian was pronounced Ki-ri-shi-tan, in 4 syllables.

 

The last two, shi and tan, could be symbolized by the shiitake and hyoutan.

 

Could the first two be expressed in some way that the represent Ki and Ri?

 

Ku for Kumo might at a stretch give Ku of Kurusu or cross. Kiri is mist... (Kuristo = Kirisuto)

 

But what words are there to express lantern? "Bon-bori".............?

 

Interesting.

I said Shitake, but it could be just «Kinoko» (mushroom). So you got your "KI". The sign of the cross is from the top (the mushroom = KInoko), to the down (cloud, but maybe not a cloud) then left (chyochin) and right (Hyotan).

 

Another thought: mushroom= earth / cloud=sky / lantern=light or fire / Hyotan=gourd=water

 

I don't have any other picture now but I can show you more details from the same one:

 

[Curran]

Interesting thread.

 

Fred Geyer has done much work on the religious symbols in some tsuba. He might be the person to ask.

 

This cross or X shape tsuba appears in some of the Higo area work. In the Baur collection there is even a Mitsuhiro tsuba (the 1000 monkeys theme) done in this shape. I do not think the shape means much.

 

I have wondered about this tsuba here:

http://www.yamabushiantiques.com/TSUBA22.htm

It belongs to Boris. My religious upbringing is fuzzy, but I saw this image all through my youth. The bird doing the nose dive above the pile of brush or kindling, with the three hills (of Calgary) in the distance. From memory, the cross was always dead center above the brush and below the bird. Protestant symbol though.... How many protestant christians in Japan?

 

Clever speculation by Bugyotsuji. Makes for a good riddle.

 

 

Curran

[Guest reinhard]

Protestant symbol though.... How many protestant christians in Japan?

 

The Christian mission in Japan:

 

roman-catholic:

Portuguese Jesuit Francis Javier reached Kagoshima in 1549; together with Anjiro, two more Japanese and two Portuguese. They were very successful and in 1585 a pontifical bulle even guaranteed them a monopolist position. Franciscan monks from Spain followed.

 

anglican:

The Church of England, in connection with the Episcopal Churches of America and Canadian missions, arrived at Japan in 1859. Their name was: Nihon Sei Kokai.

 

protestant:

In 1859, shortly after the arrival of the Anglicans, members of the American-Presbyterian and Dutch-protestant churches arrived at Japan. The mission was mainly organized by the Americans.

 

It seems very unlikely to find protestant symbols in Japan predating 1859. There was Dutch trade before, but these merchants would hardly have risked their commercial interests (and their heads) by secret missioning.

 

reinhard

[DavidF]

Christian tsuba are generally in the tokei ("gear") shape. They are generally extant from AD1550 to 1631, when Christianity was outlawed. The cross is not generally indicative of a Christian tsuba since there are some mon that are also cross-shaped. These mon have nothing to do with the symbol of Christian faith. The reason why the tokei symbol became the Japanese symbol of Christianity was because the Jesuits' logo the IHS symbol became synonymous with Christianity.

 

Following the Tokugawa shogunate declaring Christianity illegal and a horrific persecution, Christianity went underground and was thought by many to be extinct in Japan. But after WWII, there were found to be 100,000 Christians living in Japan, descendants of those early converts.

 

I would agree with the previous poster that Fred Geyer has done a lot of research in this regard. He's probably the expert on Christian sword fittings.

 

The Christian cross can be found on some tsubu, like what is displayed in my avatar, but making a positive identificatoin can be problematic.

 

DavidF.

[Bungo]

" Following the Tokugawa shogunate declaring Christianity illegal and a horrific persecution, Christianity went underground and was thought by many to be extinct in Japan. But after WWII, there were found to be 100,000 Christians living in Japan, descendants of those early converts. "

 

check out the Shimabara rebellion ( Kyushu ).......doubts there's many survivors in that one.

 

so basically when we talk about the " Christian " tsuba, we are talking " Catholic " tsuba, yes ?

One more religeous question...... circa 1859's, were the " Protestants " at odds with the " Catholics " ( ala Sunni vs the Shia ) ??

 

milt

[DavidF]

Hi Milt,

 

It is true that the Shimabara rebellion was the last public act of defiance against the harsh treatment of the Tokugawa shogunate. But at the same time, the Shimabara rebels were not the only Christians in Japan (see Morton, Japan: Its History and Culture, 122).

 

As to your question, I'm not familliar with Protestant/Catholic conflict in Japan in 1859. There were some tensions in the 19th century. In 1859-60, Pius IX was recovering from the fact that the Papal states were all being confiscated by Italian revolutionaries. So yes, there were tensions, but they weren't as heightened as they had been in the 17th-18th centuries.

 

DavidF

[Guest reinhard]

For those interested in the subject of Christian mission in Japan, I recommend the chapter "mission" in Basil Hall Chamberlain's "Things Japanese". This is also a general recommendation, for this little book is a goldmine. B.H.Chamberlain arrived at Japan in 1873 and was one of very few foreigners, who gained deep knowledge and understanding of Japanese culture. He gives a lively description of Japan at the stage of transformation during early Meiji-period, covering almost all aspects of life. It is very entertaining to read, for he kept a slight reserve (unlike many others) and never lost his sense of humour.

 

Just one more thing: Christianity was officially forbidden in Japan until 1873. There were inofficial activities, which started after the contracts of 1858 came into force. In 1865, f.e., catholic missionaries, coming from the Luchu-islands, were very pleased to meet underground-Christians in Nagasaki, who had managed to survive for such a long time and in 1864 the first protestant baptism was secretly performed. From 1873 on every Japanese was free to choose his own religious preferences. BTW, WWII ended 1945.

 

reinhard

[Bugyotsuji]

One intriguing story is that the Shogunate could not subdue the rebels in the castle of Shimabara as it was virtually impregnable. With the right ships and armaments they felt sure they could bombard the defenders into surrender, so they decided to test the Dutch desire to remain sole traders at Dejima in Nagasaki. "Lend us your ships and guns to attack the Catholics and at the same time prove that Protestants are not a threat to Japan." And the rest is another twist of history...

[Henry Wilson]

Looks like a modern cast iron fantasy tsuba to me which should be banned under Gordon Brown's new tuff stance against such things.

[Guest reinhard]

Looks like a modern cast iron fantasy tsuba to me which should be banned

 

Have a look at the rim. Too much work for being a "modern, cast fantasy".

 

reinhard

[TBKY]

Have a look at the rim. Too much work for being a "modern, cast fantasy".

 

reinhard

 

 

 

Right Reinhard.

More pictures:

 

 

I got more details about this piece. This tsuba came with a menuki-kamon of the Mizuno clan... but I'm still looking for a link between Mizuno-someone and christianity:

[Bugyotsuji]

Reinhard spotted the edge, and he was right, but that is a lovely tsuba there!

 

PS Do you have the name in writing? The Hana-omodaka Mon was used by several families, not just Mizuno. It was very slightly adapted by each. The Mizuno family attached two lines of flowing water to the bottom of the Mon, and cut short the three stems to compensate. Please cross-check with your version.

[Henry Wilson]

The surface looks bubbly, maybe cast and the colour looks painted, maybe chocolate brown. Just my spidey senses twitching......

[Guest reinhard]

The surface looks bubbly, maybe cast and the colour looks painted, maybe chocolate brown. Just my spidey senses twitching......

 

The surface structure looks OK to me. The bright, reddish colour does not, but this could be easily explained by wrong lighting. Obviously the pics weren't made by a professional photographer and should be treated with a reserve concerning colour and other colour-related features. - BTW: This is also true the other way round: Many objects in the web, professionally photographed and "improved" with Photoshop or similar tools, look pretty poor when seeing them first hand.

 

reinhard

[Henry Wilson]

Rienhard wrote:

 

The bright, reddish colour does not (look OK to me) , but this could be easily explained by wrong lighting. Obviously the pics weren't made by a professional photographer and should be treated with a reserve concerning colour and other colour-related features. - BTW: This is also true the other way round: Many objects in the web, professionally photographed and "improved" with Photoshop or similar tools, look pretty poor when seeing them first hand.

 

Just because I disagree with you does not make me stupid.

 

By the way the surface structure doesn't look OK to me.... So there....

[Brian]

I don't think anyone was calling you stupid at all Henry, you have every right to an opinion just like anyone, and I am glad you made those points. Nothing wrong with ppl having different opinions too...that's what discussion is for. What it means is that we need better photos of the surface and in different light conditions so that we can explore the theories more.

It is a good point that photos can be misleading, they can make a good item look bad, and a bad item look good.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Henry Wilson]

Thanks Brian

 

I know that no-one is saying that I am stupid and I have a right to my opinion. The message made me feel other wise though.

 

Sorry for being rude.

[TBKY]

PS Do you have the name in writing? The Hana-omodaka Mon was used by several families, not just Mizuno. It was very slightly adapted by each. The Mizuno family attached two lines of flowing water to the bottom of the Mon, and cut short the three stems to compensate. Please cross-check with your version.

 

I don't have it now. I will think about it next time.

And sorry for my pics quality. I will do my best next time. As you probably know, neon light in Japan doesn't help.

[manfrommagnum]

The symbols can all be symbols of the catholic Eucharist. Gourd = wine and water, mushroom = food or "host", lantern is light of the world, and cloud symbolizes incense which is used during the consecration.

 

It was common practice for fishing communities to substitute fish for a host. A mushroom would not be a stretch since it has a profile of a cross.

 

Michael