Oval shaped tsuba terminology - question

[Michal]

Hello!

I'm here again asking for help to spot the terms differences. This time on oval and slightly oval tsuba.

 

There are few terms floating around, which seems to mean different shapes, but few authors seem to be treat them interchangeably

 

So can anyone point differences between:

 

NADEMARU GATA

NAGAMARU GATA

TATEMARU GATA

 

Nademaru - "Oval shaped" (shibuiswords.com site), "(also as Nagamaru) oval shaped" Jim Gilbert's site;

Nagamaru - "a tsuba plate of oval shape" (aesthetic tsuba by Haynes and Torigoye)

 

So these two terms seems to be the same thing. But then it comes Tatemaru:

 

Tatemaru - "Wide elliptical shape with a larger vertical diameter" (G. Heckmann, Tsuba); "Oval shape, with the vertical diameter slightly longer than the transverse one" (Dr Lissenden, Namban group..);

 

Now there would be no serious problem, but we have three kinds of oval tsuba, and each author gives a different terms for them.

How would you called each of this tsuba shapes:

 

It would be great if someone could provide some serious source for these terms, and make it straight.

 

Thank you in advance!

[yogoro]

Dear Michal !

 

Nademaru gata is another term for Nagamaru gata - both is oval , elliptical shape.

Tatematu gata is also elliptical,round , but not perfectly round ,and longer in the vertical dimension (Nihon To Koza, Kodogu part 1 H.A.Watson)

regards

Mikolaj

[docliss]

Dear Michal

 

I agree with Mikolaj that these three terms are completely interchangeable and refer, simply, to an elliptical shape. The Japanese literate members may well correct me, but Naga, I think, means ‘elongated’, and Tate means ‘axis’. Maru-gata is, of course ‘round form’. Life is not always difficult for us collectors!

 

Regards, John L.

[Michal]

Thank you both for reasuring me. It was quite frustrating while describing tsuba, seeing not exact explanations in few books, conflicting each other (I did not mention all books here in my post). So I started to wonder...

 

On the other hand. I'm quite curious, when - in your opinions - we can start to call tsuba to be oval? Some of the authors are very restrictive, describing tsuba as oval, even if differences between lenght and width is of 1mm. The other ones are starting to call them oval when the difference is bigger (3-4 mm at least) - and it is a method I'm supporting, judging the shape of a tsuba not only by its dimensions, but through the overall look.

 

What are yours opinions and methods of distinguish the small border between oval and round shape?

 

Thank you!

[Nobody]

I think there are slight differences in those terms and their corresponding shapes. But before giving my thoughts, I would like to make sure of Nademaru-gata. Isn’t the correct term Nadekaku-gata (撫角形) ?

[Michal]

I'm familiar with both terms: nademaru and nadekaku, and there are some glossaries/books where you can find both terms described as quite different ones. Nadekaku is often described as "a slighly oval, square shape", "rounder square shape", or "square shape with rounded corners" and I believe this shape looks like here: http://www.aoi-art.com/fittings/7600-7649/07625.html

 

Isn't it?

 

But I admit nademaru term is rarest from all three mentioned here. I found this term in one Polish book but also in the glossaries on www pages: http://www.shibuiswords.com/glossary1.htm and also here: http://www.nihontokanjipages.com/kanji_for_tsuba.html and few others (just type this term in google). It doesn't mean anything, while still this terms doesn't have to be right, so if you have any clue please share! Interesting is, in Polish book the shape given as Nademaru gata is indeed a "square with rounded corners"!!! and the shape on the picture above (3B) is also close to the nadekaku indeed.

 

Regards!

[docliss]

Dear Michal

 

In a purely personal reply to your query, the dictionary definition of a circle is ‘a plane figure bounded by one line every point of which is equally distant from a fixed point called the centre’. Thus I suppose that, by this definition, a tsuba is no longer maru-gata if there is any difference between its width and length — even if this difference is minimal it must then be considered to be elliptical. I can admit to a certain logic in classifying the form of a tsuba by naked eye impression, and this has the additional bonus of possibly acknowledging the tsubakÅ’s original intentions. But I personally prefer the consistency produced by actual measurement.

 

Regards, John L.

[Nobody]

These thoughts are based on only my limited knowledge of Japanese words and brief search on tsuba pictures. I am not an expert of tsuba and know little about its common terminology.

 

At least, I found five terms about oval (?) like shape. Their literal meanings are loosely as follows;

Tatemaru-gata (竪丸形) – vertically longer circle

Nagamaru-gata (長丸形) – long circle

Kakumaru-gata (角丸形) – squarish circle

Nadekaku-gata (撫角形) – rounded square

Nademaru-gata (撫丸形) – rounded circle???

 

Though Tatemaru and Nagamaru are different words and they have different meanings, practically they seem to express the same oval like shape in tsuba world.

 

Kakumaru and Nadekaku are more close to square shape categories. According to the glossary of Choshuya-ginza, Kakumaru-gata is rounder than Nedekaku-gata.

 

One point I noticed is the curvature on the circumference. General oval shape has two max curvature points on its top and bottom naturally. On the other hand, Kakumaru-gata and Nadekaku-gata have four max curvature points on their corners, as their shapes are based on squares.

 

However, the practical usage of above terms does not seem to be so strict.

- Tatemaru and Nagamaru are used for the same shape.

- I found many cases in which the shapes like Kakumaru-gata are called as Tatemaru-gata.

 

I could not understand Nademaru-gata. I found one example with its picture in NBTHK magazine. But I do not know why they call that Nademaru.

[Michal]

Thank you Moriyama-san

 

This is quite logic presentation.

 

The reason for this topic was a lack of consequence amongst the authors, because in some books you can find some kakumara-gata tsuba called tatemaru, and so on. Errors or lack of mentioned consequence in our printed knowledge sources, are making more mess than anything good for terminology (I clearly realize that terminology is just a second or third important in collecting tsuba, but try to describe one properly without it!).

 

A shape called nademaru-gata is a little mystery because each author gives different explanation: for some of them it is pure oval shape, for others "squarish circle" - which is the most often example, so it seems to be that nademaru=nadekaku.

 

Dr John.

Thank you for your answer. It is hard to discuss with pure definitions indeed. But on the other hand, isn't 1mm in possible limit of error? We can go further and stick closely to the definition, taking advanced measuring tools and count thousandth of milimetres - I'm sure we won't find maru gata at all! So I still believe that such small differences between width and lenght of tsuba, not always will make it oval.

 

Is there any term - tatemaru or nagamaru or any other - used just for "slightly oval" shape?

 

Regards!