Menuki - Bonji Translation

[Nsk]

This is a first time post so apologies if I get anything wrong.

 

Trying to get a translation of menuki which are bonji for Fudo Myoo. These menuki came from a Bakumatsu period koshirae which may help in the translation.

 

The menuki on the left is "Fudo Myoo" with the seed syllables of Ham Mam put together. They are from one of the mantra for Fudo.

 

I cannot find the bonji for the menuki on the right. I have even secured a copy of the Bonji Taikan ( difficult for non-Japanese reader ) and still unable to correctly identify.

 

Would appreciate any help in translation or direction to someone who might be able to translate.

 

Thanks

Nick

[SwordGuyJoe]

I'm not sure but those are really cool!

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Nick.,

I believe the seed syllables would be Kan Man in a Japanese reading.

You might find more information regarding the second item by contacting one of the Shingon groups such as Shingon.org

[Nsk]

Thanks Malcolm. I was originally thinking Kan Man as well but just not seem to fit. Also looked at some of the Shingon sites but they appear to be quite old with not many updates. Will look at a few others.

 

Thanks again.

Nick

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Nick.,

 

Here's one that fits:

 

のうまく　さんまんだ　ばざらだん　せんだ　まかろしゃだ　そわたや　うん　たらた　かんまん

(Nômaku sanmanda bazaradan senda makaroshada sowataya un tarata kanman.)

[Nsk]

Malcolm,

 

Yes looked at multiple mantra, including this one, but not sure how that is represented in the menuki on the right. The one no the left fits very well to the bonji seed characters, but the one one the right does not. The top does fit a few possible characters. I might be looking at it all wrong, but the bottom of the menuki on the right does not seem to match any bonji that I have seen. The seed syllables for Kan Man appear to be different. If there is an example of that that you have found, If you could post, would be much appreciated. In the above mantra, not sure I have recognized the bonji the fit the menuki. It may just be a artistic style difference in making the menuki fit the size of the other side.

 

Maybe it is not supposed to match exactly, but everything else I have seen previously appears to match up fairly well with known characters. The Bonji Taikan gave hundreds of additional variations which I have not seen on line, but still not a fit that makes sense to me.

 

Thanks again for all your help and input. This has been truly enlightening to me, as I have learned a number of other things about bonji and Sanskrit in the process, but this piece still alludes me or my understanding of the symbols.

 

Nick

[Baka Gaijin]

High Nick.,

 

I wonder if the one on the right has anything to do with Fudo no Myoo?

 

Could it be a reference to another deity or a talismanic shorthand?

 

Markus Sesko showed a Koshirae recently that was covered with talismanic symbols.

 

http://markussesko.com/2013/04/02/kuji-kiri-a-very-special-koshirae/

[Nsk]

All options are open for now. I have looked for other Myoo, Kannon and deities. These menuki are different and would assume to have been specifically ordered, so there should be a relationship with Fudo or specific mantra, but anything is possible right now. Even back to the original mantra you mentioned. Just my lack of knowledge.

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Nick.,

 

It's a fascinating subject area, the seed syllables were often used as a kind of feudal talismanic shorthand for the mantra or invocation to the deity or deities.

 

For example, sometimes Kaga habaki have four parallel lines on one side and five on the other representing the Kuji no In.

 

There is a thread on NMB which covers this.

[SteveM]

Kan-man (不動明王) makes sense, but I'm starting to think the one on the right has the wrong orientation, and ought to be rotated 180 degrees (and the top bonji would be the one for Bishamon-ten 毘沙門天)

 

 

[SteveM]

This one (kan-man) might look a bit closer to the mark. (Respectfully lifted from a Rakuten site...)

 

http://item.rakuten.co.jp/kuubokumon/a-2/

 

 

 

[Nsk]

Steve,

 

Thanks for this. I will some additional research on Bishamon-ten! I was wondering if I had it the right way, but had no luck finding the bonji or seed syllables for it turned around. So went back to the direction above as there seemed to be some radicals which looked correct.

 

Yes the last thumbnail is indeed the other menuki.

 

Anyway, thanks again for the additional thoughts. Will let you know what additional information I get together. Back to the Bonji Taikan for this.

 

Much Appreciated.

 

Nick

[Baka Gaijin]

Good evening Nick and Steve,

 

The 180 degree shift sounds good, so if we are dealing with Bishamonten, there are at least five incarnations of Bishamonten.

 

The Bishamonten sanskrit seed is Bei

 

Maybe look at Tamonten and his mantra "On Beishiramanaya sowaka"

 

おん　べいしらまなや　そわか

 

Fascinating!

[Nsk]

Steve and Malcolm

 

Did additional work today from Bonji Taikan.

 

Research of Bishamon has not yielded any true break through. Bishamon mantra do not yield any seed syllables which would come up with the bonji above. While. The top portion of the bonji does better represent, the middle "triangle" portion of the bonji mostly points to the right. While some individual bonji syllables may look some what similar they do not appear to have a meaning by them selves and definitely to any mantra whichi could find.

 

Thanks for the other views on this. Sometime one gets stuck looking for on specific thing and does not open mind for other options. However I do not believe it is bishamon at this time without additional information.

 

Thanks again.

 

Still on the hunt!.

 

Nick

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Nick.

What happens if you turn the second symbol over on itself?

It occurred to me, the symbol might have been deliberately reversed to keep the owners intent secret if it was mounted on the Omote side of the tsuka?

Just a thought.

[Nsk]

Malcolm

 

Leaning towards other words which together might be similar to ham mam as one Bonji.

 

Something that still works with Fudo.

 

Maitri is a word meaning benevolence with two seed syllables. Combined may be possible example....a stretch. Trying to find the two individual seed to copy and post, but have not found a combined bonji to represent.

 

Nick

[Nsk]

Just a quick update:

 

Got an update from another site. Group with background in Sanskrit. Thinks the original direction is correct however does not make any sense from his archives or research either.

 

He mentioned that the mirrored image of the second bonji might have some possibilities but did not know what it might mean.

 

The following was one option from Sanskrit/Siddham.

 

ccī ma la va ṭa and possibly bha or na

 

I could not find any mantras with the above mantra.

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks

Nick