b.hennick Posted September 13, 2015 Report Posted September 13, 2015 Hello: I saw these "menuki" for sale on ebay. Anyone know what they are. The seller says Jutte. I don't think so. I so have one large one ( 40" ) made of iron.
Guido Posted September 13, 2015 Report Posted September 13, 2015 riding crop Indeed, crop not whip, I should work on my English ...
b.hennick Posted September 13, 2015 Author Report Posted September 13, 2015 At 40 inches I think that it is too long and too heavy for practical use. It does look like bamboo.
Guido Posted September 13, 2015 Report Posted September 13, 2015 At 40 inches I think that it is too long and too heavy for practical use. It does look like bamboo. I meant the menuki. Your item could be a jitte or tetsubō fashioned after a jōbamuchi (I assume it looks like in this picture?).
b.hennick Posted September 13, 2015 Author Report Posted September 13, 2015 Thanks Guido you nailed it. I expect jitte to have a hook. Testubo are more club shaped and have bumps or spikes. Where is the photo from?
Curran Posted September 13, 2015 Report Posted September 13, 2015 Guido- We posted about the same time. I didn't see your post until mine went up. Riding whip <=> riding crop. Would that my German was 1/10th as fluent as your English.... I would congratulate myself. Why do we use 'crop' instead of 'whip'? I can only guess: A whip implies something longer and more flexible? 1
Guido Posted September 13, 2015 Report Posted September 13, 2015 Where is the photo from? http://saisoku.2-d.jp/katana/2014/08/p-10.html
Guido Posted September 13, 2015 Report Posted September 13, 2015 I expect jitte to have a hook. Testubo are more club shaped and have bumps or spikes. Not always . But I think I found the correct term for your item: 鉄鞭 kanamuchi (https://kotobank.jp/word/%E9%89%84%E9%9E%AD-232446).
b.hennick Posted September 13, 2015 Author Report Posted September 13, 2015 Thanks once again. As in all things Japanese "Not always" holds true. Here is a thread on Kanemuchi http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/8372-uchiharai-jutte-and-kanemuchi-kanamuchi/
Guido Posted September 13, 2015 Report Posted September 13, 2015 Why do we use 'crop' instead of 'whip'? I can only guess: A whip implies something longer and more flexible? Perhaps Pete can get involved as this is very much his subject? (Sorry, Pete, couldn't resist: payback time! )
Stephen Posted September 13, 2015 Report Posted September 13, 2015 Crop is a short whip...lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_(implement)
estcrh Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 Thanks Guido you nailed it. I expect jitte to have a hook. Testubo are more club shaped and have bumps or spikes. Where is the photo from? b.hennick, on 12 Sept 2015 - 9:14 PM, said: At 40 inches I think that it is too long and too heavy for practical use. Barry, kanamuchi/kanemuchi is a general term for several types of long thin metal whips, they can be tapering or round bamboo shaped. A heavier version is the thick octagon shaped aribo/kiriko no bo. These were actually used in the Edo period by police/security forces as a non-lethal weapon, the length would be helpful when facing an opponent with a sword. Real ones are quite rare, probably due to being a simple iron rod they were thought to be not valuable and were recycled for other purposes. The bamboo type ones have been replicated recently and it is hard to tell a real one from a fake one. During the Edo period, muchi (whips) seem to have replaced the saihai as a symbol of rank. There are many images from the late edo to early Meiji period showing samurai holding muchi, these resemble the whips used on a horse, they were made from bamboo or wood, old yumi (bows) were remade into yumi-muchi, some muchi used by police/security forces had whistles built into them. Hope this helps.
estcrh Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 Thanks Guido you nailed it. I expect jitte to have a hook. Testubo are more club shaped and have bumps or spikes. Barry, here is a naeshi jutte, 15in long, naeshi jutte are basically a jutte without a hook, this one also looks like a minature kanabo/tetsubo, they can also look just like the menuki you are discussing.
estcrh Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 ...I think it's a riding crop... Or it could be a truncheon. 1
b.hennick Posted October 8, 2015 Author Report Posted October 8, 2015 Thanks for reviving this thread. I managed to buy the menuki. The muchi that I bought is made of good iron. The previous owner was Brian Tschernaga. I can see it as a weapon for self defense, as a walking stick. I do not think that a person armed with one of these would stand a chance against a good swordsman. OTH I never understood how some one with a jutte/jitte could survive an altercation against a swordsman.
estcrh Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 Thanks for reviving this thread. I managed to buy the menuki. The muchi that I bought is made of good iron. The previous owner was Brian Tschernaga. I can see it as a weapon for self defense, as a walking stick. I do not think that a person armed with one of these would stand a chance against a good swordsman. OTH I never understood how some one with a jutte/jitte could survive an altercation against a swordsman. Barry, the truncheon is a jutte, "jitte" is actually a completely different weapon. The jutte was a sign of office as well as a weapon, police in our times have a baton and they are up against criminals with guns, it was the same in the Edo period. Police/security officials had a variety of armor and weapons available to them including swords. Jutte were close quarters weapons. here is a link to a good Wikipedia article on Edo period police and a couple of prints showing Edo period police in action. The last print shows a group of samurai police on a roof trying to capture armed samurai, the police are wearing a lot of mail armor (kusari) under their clothing and they are using jutte and a variety of capturing weapons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_period_police
Guido Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 Barry, the truncheon is a jutte, "jitte" is actually a completely different weapon. They are one and the same thing, just different pronounciations for the kanji 十手.
estcrh Posted October 8, 2015 Report Posted October 8, 2015 They are one and the same thing, just different pronounciations for the kanji 十手. Guido, that is not correct, there are two distinct weapons, the jutte is a truncheon while the jitte is a small hand held spear. How the words are pronounced and used in Japan has nothing to do with how they are applied in the west, these terms have been in use for some time. It is understandable that people who are not aware of that the jitte exists may refer to the jutte as a jitte, the writtings of Don Cunningham, Serge Mol and George Kirby confirm the terms as used by English speaking people with a knowledge of the subject. I have posted some images of jitte and a reference by Serge Mol etc..
Guido Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Sorry, Eric, but this is getting bizarre – because a misconception is put into print by people who obviously lack command of the Japanese language, and are not familiar with the relevant literature written by native speakers, doesn’t make it a fact. https://ja.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%8D%81%E6%89%8B https://kotobank.jp/word/%E5%8D%81%E6%89%8B-74161#E5.A4.A7.E8.BE.9E.E6.9E.97.20.E7.AC.AC.E4.B8.89.E7.89.88 http://note.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/detail/n4025 1
estcrh Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Sorry, Eric, but this is getting bizarre – because a misconception is put into print by people who obviously lack command of the Japanese language, and are not familiar with the relevant literature written by native speakers, doesn’t make it a fact. https://ja.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%8D%81%E6%89%8B https://kotobank.jp/word/%E5%8D%81%E6%89%8B-74161#E5.A4.A7.E8.BE.9E.E6.9E.97.20.E7.AC.AC.E4.B8.89.E7.89.88 http://note.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/detail/n4025 Guido, were are talking about the terms used to describe certain Japanese weapons by English speaking people, what the so called "proper" pronounciation in Japanese is has nothing to do with what these weapons are called in the real world. I even see Japanese dealers and collectors use a variety of terms. The only "bizarre" thing is some so called expert in the Japanese language trying determine what these weapons should be called when they have already been named for some time. By the way, Serge Mol speaks Japanese, has lived in Japan, is married to a Japanese woman, has studied Japanese martial arts in Japan with Japanese martial arts experts for many years, you would think that he might know something about what he writes.
Guido Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 >>Sigh<< We had this kind of "discussion" already a couple of times, i.e. you insisting on using Japanese words / kanji the way you / "English speaking people" decided on, and not in the Japanese lexical definition. Whatever floats your boat, you can call a jitte / jutte Bob, Frank, or Bill for all I care. German speaking people call a cell phone a "handy", and they are totally baffled when finding out that for English speaking people it isn't a noun, that they use this word for something easily or effectively used, convenient etc. But at least they don't tell English speakers that they know better because they use it that way for many years now. Anyhow, feel free to use your parallel universe-Japanese as you see fit, but be prepared for me telling those who care for the correct linguistic and cultural contest the true meaning, regardless of your personal attacks, armchair second hand knowledge, and obvious ignorance. I will, however, promise that I'll let other forumites make up their own minds, and will not directly reply to your outlandish comments on my posts anymore.
Henry Wilson Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Who is the mean looking guy above holding the crucifix? Is it George himself?
estcrh Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 Who is the mean looking guy above holding the crucifix? Is it George himself? Japanese martial artist Nakajima Michio-Soke.
b.hennick Posted October 9, 2015 Author Report Posted October 9, 2015 Dear Eric and Guido: Thank you for your contributions to this thread. I have learned a lot about my muchi, jitte, jutte and signs of authority. Both of you have made significant contributions to this thread and the board in general. Let's just agree to disagree and end this amicably.
John A Stuart Posted October 9, 2015 Report Posted October 9, 2015 For clarity. Japanese weapon, Japanese nomenclature. じって 十手 Noun 1. short truncheon with a hook made of metal or wood (used by policeman and private thief-takers in Edo Japan)Archaism Wikipedia definition 2. Jutte The jutte or jitte, literally meaning "ten-hand" (i.e. , ... Read more Other forms 十手 【じゅって】、實手 【じって】、實手 【じゅって】、実手 【じって】、実手 【じゅって】 Notes 實手: Irregular kanji usage. 實手: Irregular kanji usage. 実手: Irregular kanji usage. 実手: Irregular kanji usage.
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