My grandfathers two swords

[Cnicoletti]

my grandfather returned from the pacific theater of ww2 with these two swords. Please take a look at the pictures of the signatures on the hilt and let me know when they are from and who they were made by. I've tried to translate using the reddit forums but haven't had any luck. http://imgur.com/sTzfAig http://imgur.com/xVcN8Dv http://imgur.com/GRrpjRS http://imgur.com/KSfypx7

Thanks, Colin

[cabowen]

The one on the left is signed Ichihara Nagamitsu, who was a smith who worked during WWII.

 

The one on the right is signed Hizen no Kuni ju Nin Tadayoshi. There was a long line of smiths who used this signature from around 1600 until around 1900. Many are well known with many fakes made. To determine whether or not yours is genuine would require better photos and probably in hand viewing of the sword by an expert familiar with this group of sword makers. On occasion, there are groups of experts brought to the US for sword appraisal. This is called "shinsa". There will be such groups coming to the US in both 2015 and 2016.

 

Hope this is of some help.

[QuangD]

Colins,

 

The left hand side smith name is "Ichihara Nagamitsu" .

 

The right hand side smith name is "Hizen Kuni Ju ni Tada Yoshi"

[Brian]

This should give you all the info you need on Nagamitsu: http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/naga.htm

Googling or searching the forum will give you tons of info on Hizen Tadayoshi. To clarify, the sword is genuine, it is the signature that needs to be verified as there are many spurious signatures on real and old swords.

 

Brian

[Guido]

Not to derail this thread, but my host country deems Imgur "unsafe" (usually a euphemism for allowing un-islamic content or nudity). May I suggest to post pictures as attachments to posts instead of linking them?

[Brian]

Guido,

Have you tried putting links like that into a free proxy such as https://hide.me/en/proxy ?

 

Brian

[Guido]

Have you tried putting links like that into a free proxy ... ?

Yes, but it doesn't always work and is quite annoying.

I thought I escaped censorship when I left China, but recently there are more and more websites I can't access here in Indonesia; they call it "internet sehat" ("internet health"), websites like Vimeo and many others are blocked. I recently visited Bali where people are mostly Hindu, and those websites worked just fine, so it has to be an Islamic censorship. Same country, different standards.

But I'm digressing even more ...

[Jim P]

Guido have you tried the Tor network ? it also does not always work and can be annoying but it is one of the better free VPN . If it was not for Google and their anti spambots, CAPTCHA page it would be a lot better. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_%28ano ... network%29

[Kronos]

I'm not sure if the filters used in Indonesia are more advanced (I suspect they will be) but sites blocked here in the UK by court orders can still be accessed using Https instead of regular http which is the easiest method of circumvention. Otherwise VPN's and the Tor network as have already been suggested are your only options.

[Guido]

Jim, in China I used Steganos VPN - you have to pay about 50.- US $ a year, but it works like a charm, there's no difference to opening websites the regular way. However, it slows down the speed considerably.

 

But enough whining, I have to live with the current situation. I'm glad I'm not in North Korea, they probly would have sent a death squad in my direction by now ...

[Stephen]

back to the swords, what are the nagasas of the blades? your plans for them?

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

The kanji on the Tadayoshi look fine and well cut but there are a couple of problems apparent on this sword's nakago. These are the machi-okuri and the suriage, both undesirable on a shinto blade. Further the mei reads HIZEN KUNI JUNIN TADAYOSHI. I believe that with this so-called Junin-mei there is always "saku" at the end. This has obviously been lost in the suriage, again devaluing the sword somewhat. A look at the blade might be interesting. Coincidentally I recently came accross another Hizen-to with similar problems, but this was a Masahiro>

May I take this opportunity of wishing you all SEASON'S GREETINGS

Regards

Clive Sinclaire

PS It seems many "grandfather's swords" are coming up for sale recently. As a grandfather myself I must be caqreful!

[Brian]

Always good to hear from you Clive.

Clive knows his swords, so you are best advised to have this examined in person by someone, as it does have a chance. If shoshin, then even suriage and machi-okuri, it may be a nice sword.

Wishing you and everyone a very happy Festive Season Clive!

 

Brian

[Stephen]

if long sword, id not worry about the loss...some dont mind, just those who will look to resale and cope a profit.

 

measurements from tip to habaki notch please

[Cnicoletti]

Thank you all for helping me learn about these two swords. I have received a lot of requests for more more information on them, please "dumb down" your requests as I do not understand the technical terms. If you guys would like some better pictures or measurements of specific features of the blades please understand I am new to this community and am trying to learn as much as I can quickly.

 

 

I have also received several requests to disclose my agenda regarding these blades and let me be very clear: THEY ARE NOT FOR SALE

 

I am interested in the value of these blades but The monetary value of these blades is surpassed greatly by the history of where it came from. The men that held this blade before my family used it as a combat weapon in the tradition of Japan, and I respect that.

My grandfather died around Christmas in 2000, my grandmother has been put in hospice due to her late stage Alzheimer's. My grandfather was stationed in China during WW2, with a division of the navy where he was part of covert operations to defend mainland China from the invasion of the Empire of Japan. I am interested in authentication of these blades and the signatures on them for the sole purpose of understanding how and why my grandfather came into possession of them. In addition to the blades, my grandfather also was in possession of an officers sidearm pistol. If you are interested in pictures of the pistol I will post some, I have had the pistol authenticated by a firearms expert and it is beautiful.

 

Again, thank you for your help, teaching me so much about the rich history of these weapons and the smithing techniques. Please be respectful with your requests. Happy holidays, Colin Nicletti

[Clive Sinclaire]

if long sword, id not worry about the loss...some dont mind, just those who will look to resale and cope a profit.measurements from tip to habaki notch please

A trifle unjust and hurtful to attribute soley commercial reasons to what I said. There is little doubt that shinto blades whose nakago is altered in the manner of this sword, are considered less desirable than those that are ubu. This is not the case so much with koto of course. I am sure most, other than Stephen apparently, would far prefer ubu swords.

Clive Sinclaire

[Stephen]

Dear Sir Clive

 

please grant me some back steping here, I ment no disrespect my friend, yes only ubu Shinto's go to heaven, I was merely trying to state(very poorly) that not all collector demand Shinto to be ubu, the wise ones yes, I am looking for a sword over 28" if its Shinto and been shortened, id not kick it off my check out list. Please forgive my rash hurried post without making sure I knew what I was saying.

[Brian]

Hi Clive,

I am sure what Stephen meant (and how I took it) is that a bit of shortening of the nakago shouldn't affect the ability of a novice or collector to appreciate the blade and the beauty of the art. It would only be detrimental if one were selling or one were a seasoned collector looking for the best examples possible.

Of course o-suriage and machi okuri is not the ideal situation, especially for collectors. But if one wants to appreciate the blade, history and any sentimental value, the fact that it was shortened should not become a primary and negative focus.

O-suriage and suriage is mainly a commercial flaw. It reduces the desirability of a collectors piece and is less tolerated in Shinto and Shinshinto. But rather a suriage sword by a good smith than an ubu kazu-uchi mono, right?

 

Brian

 

Edit to add: Sorry, saw Stephen just posted himself. My comments remain as my own feelings too though

[Kronos]

It's only tolerated in Koto because there's a smaller body of work from that time and a far higher percentage are shortened making ubu somewhat of a rarity. If it were the same for Shinto no one would bat an eyelid, it's only that most people unlike a few for Koto can own Ubu swords that it's a bigger issue imho.

[Brian]

This can form a topic on its own if anyone desires. Otherwise let's get back on topic please.

 

Brian