Naginata (nagamaki) naoshi yokote

[Marius]

There are two kinds of naginata naoshi I have encountered - the first one has a yokote, which delineates a huuuge kissaki, the other one has no yokote. As far as the kissaki in blades wher a yokote has been done by the polisher, the surface of the kissaki is a continuation of the blade, so that the yokote is just a line, and not a change of angle.

 

I wonder what the reason might be for either of these polishes?

 

Attached are two pics from Aoi Art. Both swords are from the same school - ko-Uda.

[Guido]

..., the surface of the kissaki is a continuation of the blade, so that the yokote is just a line, and not a change of angle.

Most swords don't have an abrupt "change of angle" at the Yokoto - the Yokote is usually placed where the Koshinogi starts to narrow down. However, putting a Yokote on a Nagamaki (-naoshi) looks a little awkward in my personal opinion, I guess it's up to the taste of the owner and/or polisher if one is done or not.

[Marius]

Most swords don't have an abrupt "change of angle" at the Yokoto - the Yokote is usually placed where the Koshinogi starts to narrow down. However, putting a Yokote on a Nagamaki (-naoshi) looks a little awkward in my personal opinion, I guess it's up to the taste of the owner and/or polisher if one is done or not.

 

Thank you Guido :-)

 

I also thought this might be a matter of taste. I have seen a Hokke nagamaki where I wish the polisher hadn't made a yokote. But since I loked at the blade and seen almost no change in angle after the yokote, I guess it should be easy to remove it in the course of the next polish...

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Mihara_naoshi.htm (good sword, problematic polish)

[nihonto1001]

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Mihara_naoshi.htm

Is that a turn-back in the boshi (the second picture of the kissaki)?

[Marius]

Yes it does, and on the ura the boshi is pointed with hakkake. You can't see it in the pics attaced, but I am posting it so show the hakkake.

 

This sword's polish s.cks royally

[seattle1]

Hello:

I think it might be deeper than just the aesthetics of a yokote line looking pleasing or less pleasing, as the yokote line divides, in the usual use of stones on a blade with a yokote line, the movement of the polishing stone from with the axis of the blade to perpendicular to the axis above the yokote. I would guess, and it is only a guess, that the visual effects on the surface of a blade with or without a yokote in the kissaki area will look somewhat different depending on the underlying stone direction. It might be that appearance of stone usage rather than the yokote as such which determines the choice of yokote or no yokote.

Arnold F.

[nihonto1001]

I very much like naginata-naoshi sugata nihonto. The fact that many "wood block print Samurai" characters are using them, I think says something about the way they were valued as a weapon.

 

Assuming that is nioi-guchi in the turn back, that has me thinking Muromachi period, made in the "form" of a naginata-naoshi.

[Marius]

Arnold,

 

This is an interesting angle, thank you

 

Jon,

 

Muromachi would be in line with the Hokke attribution. Thanks I must say, though, that it is a massive beast, feels like a pole-arm, or what's left of it.

[Marius]

Having complained about the polish, I have to add that Danny (http://www.nihontocraft.com) has discussed this sword with me thoroughly and that no doubt has been left as to the polish and its state.

 

The blade was priced accordingly and having had it in hand I must say it is an excellent sword that would greatly benefit from a new polish.

 

Sorry for this plug, but Danny really deserves the kudos.

[nagamaki - Franco]

It is my understanding (and I'm certain someone will check it out as it should be), in papering, adding a yokote line to a naginata naoshi is that the NBTHK would then define it as a "katana" or "wakizashi", where if the yokote is not added it will be classified as a naginata naoshi.

 

http://japantrip.tripod.com/Japan/osafune2.html

[Peter Bleed]

Mariusz,

You asked a darn good question and generated an interesting discussion. Thanks. I had the same reaction you did to this sword. Whoever made this decision, did not improve this blade at a macro level at least IMHO.

Peter

[Eric H]

It is my understanding (and I'm certain someone will check it out as it should be), in papering, adding a yokote line to a naginata naoshi is that the NBTHK would then define it as a "katana" or "wakizashi"

Substitutionally for other examples I post these pictures of a JuTo classified as naginata naoshi.

 

Eric

[Jean]

http://www.aoijapan.com/nagamaki-naoshi ... token-21th

[Marius]

Ah! Jean!

 

Have at you with another one

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Hojoji_Nagi ... zashi.html

 

and another one:

http://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashimumei- ... d-as-kouda

 

and another one:

http://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-hiroyuki-shumei

 

and another one:

http://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-mumei ... e-kanehisa

 

Blast! I have lost! None of these has a yokote

[nihonto1001]

Having complained about the polish, I have to add that Danny (http://www.nihontocraft.com) has discussed this sword with me thoroughly and that no doubt has been left as to the polish and its state.

 

When dealing with this type of thing, all one can do is describe the item as it is. Good to hear.

 

During the Muromachi period, "Retro Nagamaki-Naoshi" wakizashi and katana were made. I have never seen any of the like from a prior period. Boshi, is of course evidence, as the turn back would normally be cut off (or at least partially) in a true nagamaki-naoshi.

[nagamaki - Franco]

It is my understanding (and I'm certain someone will check it out as it should be), in papering, adding a yokote line to a naginata naoshi is that the NBTHK would then define it as a "katana" or "wakizashi"

Substitutionally for other examples I post these pictures of a JuTo classified as naginata naoshi.

 

Eric

 

Okay, did this sword have a yokote originally as both some naginata and nagamaki did or was it added? And when a new owner/polisher go ahead and add a yokote where there never was one how does

that change things in the eyes of the NBTHK?

[cabowen]

I am curious how you would know?

[Marius]

Boshi, is of course evidence, as the turn back would normally be cut off (or at least partially) in a true nagamaki-naoshi.

 

Jon,

 

I am not sure about that statement. Not that I disagree with it but I would love to see some evidence. Is a pronounced saki-zori mandatory for a naginata/nagamaki?

 

A few scrolls seem to support your opinion - we see even extreme saki-zori there (the 13th c. Heiji scroll being the prime example). Also, blades such as the Hojoji Kunimitsu here: http://www.sho-shin.com/hojoji-kunimitsu1.jpg have saki-zori that would probably have to be adjusted when converting the pole-arm into a daito or shoto.

 

Just asking...

[Jean]

Mariusz,

 

 

AFAICR, I think you have the answer in the "Connoisseur's book of Japanese swords"

[Eric H]

And when a new owner/polisher go ahead and add a yokote where there never was one how does

that change things in the eyes of the NBTHK?

 

Naginata or Nagamaki that have been reshaped are papered as

naginata naoshi or nagamaki naoshi regardless of their size as Katana or Wakizashi. Generally the part of the kaeri is removed and thus becoming a yakizume boshi...the occasionally added yokote by the polisher gives the blade a special effect and is perhaps an indicator to identify at a first glance that it is a „naoshi“ blade.

That said in the eyes of the NBTHK this is no issue, it‘s merely an aesthetic value by polisher or owner.

 

Eric

[nihonto1001]

Hi Mariusz

 

I have found, the one rule in this hobby is, there are no rules.

 

I am going with most nagamaki-naoshi had adjusted curvature and/or saki-haba when transforming into Katana or Wak form.

 

I have 2 fine examples residing in my collection, which I have been meaning to have photographed; a Ko-Uda wak, with ayasugi hada and a big Osafune Masamitsu. Both have no yokote and trimmed boshi.

 

Nagasaki-naoshi is one of my favorite forms, with or without yokote. That Hojoji example is excellent.

 

My main point is that during Muromachi times, they started to make Wakizashi and Daito in nagamaki-naoshi form, having never been a nagamaki.

[Marius]

Photos John, photos please :D

 

It seems like quite a few people just love this shape

[Guido]

A Ko-Uda blade with Ayasugi-hada? That sounds indeed most interesting.

[Marius]

Perhaps it is Norishige, not ko-Uda? These two schools can be quite similar... Maybe a ko-Uda turned out to be Norishige after a new polish?

 

Oh, those Hokkoku-mono, with their o-hada

[Jean]

Matsukawa hada is not ayasugi hada :D

[nihonto1001]

A Ko-Uda blade with Ayasugi-hada? That sounds indeed most interesting.

 

I thought the same. I mentioned it to another collector who likes Ko Uda. He said patches of ayasugi are not uncommon in these works. Of course, Norishige would be better)

 

But, who am I to challenge the NBTHK. It is a beautiful work nonetheless.

[Marius]

But, who am I to challenge the NBTHK. It is a beautiful work nonetheless.

Pictures Jon, pictures

 

And here is a pic of a Norishige. Whatever you call this hada, it is quite similar to ayasugi...

http://www.sho-shin.com/norishige1.jpg

[nihonto1001]

Yes, it is like that, but without the whirlpools above it. Although, the undulations do occur close to the ha, I think the Ko-Uda is more ayasugi-esque.

 

I will get the camera out this weekend, and massacre some photos.

[Marius]

Now, hasn't that turned into a very nice off topic? Not that I mind, of course :lol:

[Jean]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14794

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13429&start=15

 

Mariusz,

 

Far from norishige matsukawa, Ayasugi is generally very ample, like big sinusoïds.