Classic Yagyu Tsuba...

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Here are some photos I was able to take today of a classic Yagyu tsuba in my collection that I will be soon adding it to my website. I consider my work done on this tsuba in terms of removing the vintage lacquer/paint. I am suspecting this was added on the tsuba likely around World War 2. The dynamic boldness of the openwork design of a standing wave along with the texture of the course sandy iron I find very appealing. The massiveness of this tsuba is remarkable given the small size of 7.4 cm. I don't think the ura side will ever look as good as the omote side given what was done to it but time will tell and I am planning to keep this tsuba for a very long time. I am planning to submit this tsuba some time next year to the NBTHK for Hozon level shinsa.

I also came across this Shoami tsuba with a similar design in a Japanese tosugu blog by Zenzai: http://blog.goo.ne.jp/tsuba_001/e/f31b9fa18f775ab4123970412b37f8c0. It might date from about the same time period of the late 1600s to early 1700s. The seppa-dai shape is very different then my tsuba which I feel indicates the Shoami attribution but regardless is a nice tsuba as well. Enjoy.

 

[b.hennick]

It looks like it once had inserts in the two ana.

[Peter Bleed]

David,

Thank you for posting yet another interesting, thought provoking message. You got me to get out some books I have not looked at for a while. I looked - closely - at your guard and googled to some new corners of the web. All of this was great fun. It flexed my understanding and expanded my view. Thank you.

Assuming that you want reactions and that can give us more to think about, please let me say that I am challenged by this fitting.

Peter

[Soshin]

It looks like it once had inserts in the two ana.

Hi Barry H.,

 

You might have seen this tsuba at the Tampa show this year because the previous owner if I remember correctly had it at the show. I have noticed that to with the inserts. From examining the guard some more in hand I noticed that the following area along the seppa-dai is a copper insert that has been patinated and colored to match the near by iron of the seppa-dai. I have it highlighted in a black box in the photo below. It is little more noticeable on the ura side.

 

Hi Peter B.,

 

There are two very similar tsuba to mine on page 151 and 152 of the book Early Japanese Sword Guards Sukashi Tsuba by Masayuki Sasano. In the same blog they had another Yagyu tsuba from page 153 Sasano's book with a variation of this basic standing wave openwork design with a background of a wheel. Here is the link: http://blog.goo.ne.jp/tsuba_001/e/1a1cca2fa73ecda86386c5a0b47009d2. I hope this topic is good food for thought and meaningful discussion.

[ROKUJURO]

David,

 

I had also marked this area (among others) in the previous thread when you presented this TSUBA. How does this copper strip hold in place if not by soldering?

 

Do you have an explanation for the many cut-like grooves on the rim and the surface?

 

Just from the photos I still have a feeling that this TSUBA doesn't look right, but then again I don't have many YAGYU to compare. So I am looking forward curiously to the SHINSA results next year!

[Soshin]

Hi Jean C.,

 

I had also marked this area (among others) in the previous thread when you presented this TSUBA. How does this copper strip hold in place if not by soldering?

No I was wrong I tested with a magnate and it is iron. I used another part of the guard as a positive control and the copper sekigane as a negative control with in magnate experiment. I am now thinking copper was scraped across it and left a little bit of copper residue which made me think the underlying metal was another copper insert.

 

Do you have an explanation for the many cut-like grooves on the rim and the surface?

In books possessed by the Yagyu family it states that early Yagyu tsuba were tested by by placed on a wooden block and pounded and cut to test their strenght. Sasano doubted this claim even though it was part of the family historical records. In Owari to Mikawa no Tanko Okamoto Yasukazu discusses that a "yakite-kusarashi" rough surface is applied to Yagyu tsuba. A early special term was also used to described this rough text of the forged iron as "kusari-arashi".

 

Just from the photos I still have a feeling that this TSUBA doesn't look right, but then again I don't have many YAGYU to compare. So I am looking forward curiously to the SHINSA results next year!

 

No problem I will keep everyone updated when I submit this next year. Here is a link to Mike Y. site he has just recently posted a papered Yagyu tsuba for sale: http://tetsugendo.com/. It has a really nice 360 degree view. You get the idea of the glossiness of the iron when you view Mike's 360 degree view which is very clear on my tsuba as well in hand. :D

[christianmalterre]

Jean,

 

these "cut like grooves" are "somehow typical" to find in Tsuba done by a well known Group/shop of Tsubashi ben active in latter Edo

equally the iron of David´s Tsuba is very representative for this Group!

And yes-they are told to ben known so to have produced Tsuba for the Yagyu.

 

attached an picture from their´s Sketchbook...

 

concerning this in future happening attr.by NBTHK...

speaking seriously now-me would hard wonder if they don´t see the essentials!

 

Christian

[ROKUJURO]

.....attached a picture from their sketchbook.....

Thank you, Christian!

 

It looks more like rubbings of a YAMAKICHI BEI (left) and a YAGYU TSUBA with a design very similar to David's. I have seen sample pages of the famous YAGYU sketchbook in the past, and there is no doubt that David's TSUBA shows a YAGYU motive.

 

The SHINSA panel will have a close look while we are only able to discuss about photos. The surface may well be more convincing in reality.

 

Concerning the YAKITE KUSARASHI treatment as supposed to have been executed on YAGYU TSUBA: I am doing metallurgical research on techniques like this one and there is no evidence that this process is done as we believe it was. In most cases there are other explanations for surfaces we find to be typical for a school or a maker.

[christianmalterre]

Jean ,

 

Yakite Kusarashi....

seems we both are sitting in same ship here

PM sent...

 

Christian

[Soshin]

Jean,

 

these "cut like grooves" are "somehow typical" to find in Tsuba done by a well known Group/shop of Tsubashi ben active in latter Edo

equally the iron of David´s Tsuba is very representative for this Group!

And yes-they are told to ben known so to have produced Tsuba for the Yagyu.

 

attached an picture from their´s Sketchbook...

 

concerning this in future happening attr.by NBTHK...

 

Hi Chistian,

 

I disagree having a few from this school some that were papered. My tsuba is likely first or second period Yagyu tsuba made by the Ono school. The pervious owner was thinking secord period. But in the end I am going to see what the NBTHK says. If NBTHK says it's "Yagyu" but you are truly correct then good old Norisuke will be smiling from beyond the grave. :lol:

[John A Stuart]

Obviously a tsuba of tatsunami design and of Yagyu geniture, but, Ohno, Owari ?? I don't know. Why Ohno specifically? The mimi isn't typical to me, it lacks the definition and glossiness (term) I associate with Yagu tsuba. Way later than the golden period to me and I preclude Norisuke from contention. I understand the iron of the early guards was considered coarsely wrought and fluid (quickly cut and not refined), but, not a sunaji texture on any I have seen. Of course these are just my own musings I posit. John

[Soshin]

Obviously a tsuba of tatsunami design and of Yagyu geniture, but, Ohno, Owari ?? I don't know. Why Ohno specifically? The mimi isn't typical to me, it lacks the definition and glossiness (term) I associate with Yagu tsuba.

 

Hi John S.,

 

The mimi of any Yagyu tsuba is kaku-mimi (square rim) which is what my tsuba has. Later examples started to show more rounded rims that are called kaku-mimi koniku (rounded square rim). This characteristic was one of the original design requirements by Yagyu Ren'ya. The iron texture, patina color, and shape of the seppa-dai points to the Ōno school in Owari Province. Here is a papered example: http://www.finesword.co.jp/sale/kodougu/htm/1051_2000/1751_1800/1796/k1796.htm. Now at shinsa the NBTHK is not going to be that specific with their attribution of my tsuba and will only likely state "Yagyu" on the paper.

 

P.S. I have been studying Yagyu tsuba in hand and via books lately. The ones in hand were owned by old time US collectors. Many had Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon papers.

[John A Stuart]

Hi David, Not the shape of the mimi, that corresponds, but, the surface texture and carving. I expect the same appearance common to Owari guards in good condition. That is, glassene (term?). As well as more so in the carved body of the tsuba though to varying degree. I, as well, await an higher educated eyes' opinion from shinsa. John

[christianmalterre]

John,

you are right of course!

This is not an yagyu tsuba in word of classical sense.

It´s an Tsuba made(most probably)for an Yagyu order or somebody ben involved into...definitely latter piece,certainly not Ono group equally.

David maybe did study these by looking into books and maybe seeing a couple in live yet...

Me do own them-such i think i do know on what to have an look for ben collecting them..

David-do you have the NBTHK issue written by Jim Gilbert and issued via/for Andy Quirt in August 2005 NBTHK-American Branch...

 

the average thickness on early ones is with 65 mm to max 72 mm and an thicknes of rim around 5.4 plus minus 1 mm to ben called classical..

the dimensions are surprisingly uniform,specified along with the individual design.

an lamination of the iron can most time ben seen in the mimi or at least clearly in the sukashi openings..

the iron...

and:

the late copies by Norisuke do show many pronounced,fine layers in the edge like pastry crust.As with the overworked tekkotsu seen in their YKB-copies,the Norisuke workers trended to overdo the distinctive charasteristics that they were imitating.

 

The collector whom did part from this Tsuba is well known to me-i got an inquiery relating this very Tsuba in past.

 

Christian

[Soshin]

John,

you are right of course!

This is not an yagyu tsuba in word of classical sense.

It´s an Tsuba made(most probably)for an Yagyu order or somebody ben involved into...definitely latter piece,certainly not Ono group equally.

David maybe did study these by looking into books and maybe seeing a couple in live yet...

Me do own them-such i think i do know on what to have an look for ben collecting them..

David-do you have the NBTHK issue written by Jim Gilbert and issued via/for Andy Quirt in August 2005 NBTHK-American Branch...

 

Hi Christian,

 

Sorry about you missing out on this tsuba. I have miss out on more then a few nice tsuba. I have a book that came out in 2007 by the NBTHK-American Branch with a large article written by Jim Gilbert on Yagyu tsuba. Not sure this is the same thing. I am also not sure if I should submit this tsuba to the upcoming NTHK-NPO shinsa or wait and have it go to the NBTHK.

 

Hi John,

 

I am fully aware of what your taking about which is a condition issue that will not resolved anytime soon.