Changes in sori

[Ken-Hawaii]

I was giving my granddaughter some lessons in kantei last night, & she asked me a question for which I don't have an answer: just why did katana blade sori evolve from koshi-zori to saki-zori to torii-zori?

 

From an engineer's standpoint, I can't think of any reason why the sori "location" would have a tremendous impact on how the sword was used. Drawing a tachi is obviously different from drawing a katana, but having tried both using my own blades with similar hacho, the type of sori doesn't appear to make any great difference, other than nukitsuke, of course. I'm still working my way through understanding how, when, & why the sugata changed over time, & at least that can be generally tied to external events, but I don't see any correlation with changes in sori.

 

Any ideas would be appreciated.

 

Ken

 

P.S. I can't wait for her to start asking me why funbari also changed....

[cabowen]

My understanding is that it was tied to usage.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I agree to some point, Chris, & the shape of the sugata reflects those usage changes. But do you think that the sori location was also usage-based? Doesn't feel that way from my admittedly subjective tests in drawing & swinging my own blades.

 

Ken

[J Reid]

When having a sword custom made sori, just like blade length, and weight is usually determined by the swordsmans body type, reach, and martial technique.

Of course we know that the largest change in history was deep sori to shallow sori and this was mostly due to the transition from tachi to buke zukuri mountings.

So in response to your question.. my theory would be that the type and position of sori was more of a personal thing as oppose to fashion. Of course there is also the smiths/schools preference (which would lean on fashion).

Just thinking out loud here.

[kusunokimasahige]

From a fighting style which was mostly from horseback when not using the bow, to a fighting style on foot.

 

That, in my opinion was historically the main reason. You can also see this in sword length.

 

 

KM

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yup, Henk-Jan, blade length & curvature certainly changed from tachi to katana. But koshi-zori to saki-zori & torii-zori?

 

If you happen to have all three blade types, try drawing them, & let me know if you can feel any difference at all in how they are used. If it was a personal thing - & I'm not sure how or why a Samurai would approach a swordsmith to ask him to make a sori location change - then how did the two latter sori types get widespread so quickly that they are now viewed as "standard" from Muromachi onwards?

 

Ken

[Lance]

My impression from various publications:

 

Early tachi with koshi-zori were mostly used from horseback one-handed like cavalry sabers, the

small(er) point and straight(ish) monouchi was a good balance for precision thrusting and slashing while in the saddle.

 

Uchi-gatana with Sakizori; the curve higher up allowed more slashing force to be applied in the main impact area, especially useful since when on foot you don't have as much momentum behind a blade as when charging or rushing someone on a horse, and less likely to get hung up in close quarters.

 

Tori-zori was an evolution of the other 2 in part due to shortening, kosh-izori the main curvature was lost when shortening, but there would still be a slight overall curvature remainig.

When a Saki-zori blade was shortened the length below the greatest curvature would end up closer to center overall.

 

Early Shinto supposedly adopted the shapes of these shortened swords and over time with no country-wide wars this shape became a standard of sorts.

Some other books like Nakahara's mention early tachi may have had a tori-zori shape and examples seen now are the results of repairing battle damage through polishing and reshaping.

As an aside I don't think Wabi-Sabi would be the correct term but is there a similar idea of something of great age gaining perfection or beauty through use?

 

Regards,

Lance

[cabowen]

I think the changes in sori type and the reasons for these changes are mentioned in much of the literature; as I understand it, koshizori was common in tachi due to the horseback usage and saki-zori became the norm later in katana due to the iai draw. At least this is how I have heard it explained. Toriizori may have been popular in both periods...

[J Reid]

I like lances' response.

[ownaSadayoshi]

Possibly another explanation for the sori change was the experimentation with heat treating. We all know that when the sword is quenched with thick clay on the mune and light on the ha, the sori curvature is produced. With the advancement of heat treating methods over the years getting better, and application of clay, the position of the sword when quenched, the sori can change location. I'm sure that over time the preference by samurai as to sori placement based on use (horse or foot soldier) played a role as to what was popular. Whichever sword they felt most comfortable in battle with, weight distribution, feel and most success was probably also the sword smith they sought after. Other smiths adopted those changes too, so they would provide what people wanted. Smiths wanted to sell swords, and become the best at their trade. What people wanted is what they made.

 

John

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

There were rarely only one kind of sori on a blade, more often, koshi or saki-sori were mixed with tori-sori. Like you can see different kinds of sori at the same time, i've a big doubt they had a practical purpose.

[Ruben]

Hi Ken and Gentlemen,

 

good queustion, I asked me the same when starting Kendo.

Came from Iai practice before.

A straight sword is totaly different feeling when beeing used, its harder to swing, it requires more precision and some movements are pretty hard to do. For example cutting from bottom to top.

 

Saki Sori would be good on horseback, cutting one handned the other´s heads . Also good for one handed hacking with Katate Uchi sword in close combat.

But also the Koshi Sory has it´s advantage, it is very versatile.

The Sori makes hughe difference, of course you need extreme examples to realy feel it.

Who nows how the warriors choosed there sword´s. But at some point for shure they used what was there.

 

PS: Just try it, lift a sword over the head, about 45 degree or little more and just turn your body 180 degree and back Maybe it helps to understand?!

 

Regards

 

ruben

[george trotter]

Interesting comments...I read somewhere (years ago) that saki-zori was a distict development of the process/mechanics of drawing the sword as a katana. In the time of "quick or dead", the more curved portion in the foward third of the blade allowed the blade (or the hand?) to begin its "first positioning" for the stroke a bit earlier because the blade did not have to be drawn lineally forward from the saya for as long as a straighter or un-sak-zori blade...if this makes sense.

Similarly, I suppose the curvature of a tachi also affects the position of the blade at the instant the kissaki clears the kuchi...it allows the blade (or the hand?) to already be better positioned for the intended first kata.

 

In Shinto times they were non-threatening strolling about killing peasant sort of days, so long, straighter was fine (you get what I mean).

 

The width and sori of blades in WWII show that the type of fighting then was requiring changes in length, width and thickness, but, as the speed of the draw was not crucial, and the carrying/saya was different, it did not seem to return to saki-zori...just good cutting strength and cutting characteristics etc.

I may be wrong of course.

regards,

[cabowen]

The shape of the blade has always been dictated by the practical usage common at the time. From deeply curved blades with koshizori common in early tachi to nearly straight blades seen in Kanbun Shinto, sori very much follows the "form follows function" tenent that has guided the development of nihonto since the beginning....As Einstein said, God doesn't roll dice, and neither did Japanese sword smiths when it came to making nihonto.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

From deeply curved blades with koshizori common in early tachi to nearly straight blades seen in Kanbun Shinto

 

Existant swords show that sentence is quite wrong. Often the sori is tori but when the nakago has a strong sori itself that gives a wrong feeling of koshi zori.

 

Keep in mind Kyo-zori = tori-zori and Bizen zori = koshi-zori. both existed at the same time.

[cabowen]

Are you saying that deeply curved blades with koshi-zori were not common in early tachi and that nearly straight blades did not exist in Kanbun?

 

The nakago has nothing to do with the sori.

 

From （Token Bijutsu No.551）

 

Nihon Koto Shi

 

(History of Koto):

 

By Dr. Honma Junji

 

 

2. Heian Period

 

 

 

Early tachi-sugata has deep sori with conspicuous koshi-zori

 

So maybe you should take it up with Dr. Homma....

[Ruben]

Are you saying that deeply curved blades with koshi-zori were not common in early tachi and that nearly straight blades did not exist in Kanbun?

 

No he isn´t!

 

Greetings

 

ruben

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

All these sword are late Heian and early Kamakura :

 

 

Source Markus'sblog

[cabowen]

And the majority of them have koshi-zori...

 

Ugh, never mind. I know better than to try to have a reasoned discourse with Jacques.....

[Lance]

I hope Jacques doesn't mind me taking his picture and doing a virtual o-suriage and imaginary nakago for comparison in the images below, to illustrate how the loss of koshi-zori by greatly shortening produces what seems in general tori-zori, even with the varying amount of sori in the different blades.

 

I tried matching the natural curvature with the added nagago, and I know it's not perfect, but I didn't alter anything in the shape of the blades themselves, just rotated a few to make it easier to match up a straight line for each one.

 

(even if it's only done in pictures it still looks like sacrilege! )

 

 

Regards,

Lance

[george trotter]

With respect, I think the suriage process was more about shortening the now too-long tachi....although I do see your point about the "apparent" emergence of a new sori sword....this IMHO is the product of shortening, not the demands of use which saw a change to saki-zori. (Of course Jacques, we can see all types of examples from all types of eras, but the question was, what caused the change from koshi to saki to tori zori that is generally observed).

 

Perhaps the reason associated with the initial drawing of the blade (as mentioned) is that single issue most affecting the sori. FWIW I give an illustration of what I understand from my old readings (and as Chris has mentioned also) and it can be (crudely) seen here.

Pic one shows the positioning and distance of the tachi sayaguchi from the body...hence the method of drawing the blade will be of a certain dynamic and hence the sori will be of a cerrtain style...of course it would require an even longer blade and associated optimum (different) sori if the drawing and striking was from horseback to horseback.

Pic two shows the positioning and distance of the katana sayaguchi from the body...it is quite different from the tachi...hence the sori will be different. Our experience with uchigatana blades and drawing methods shows that a distinct saki-zori was very beneficial to drawing and striking a foot to foot opponent.

The longer blade and gentle tori-zori of shinto-shinshinto times reflects the lack of urgency of "the demands" of life or death sword play (mostly "fashion" IMHO) and in modern times WWII the type of mounting again and the low need for instant positioning when drawing the blade leads to the generally seen length, sori and dimensions seen in gunto blades...ie the drawing and positioning for striking of the first blow has again determined the shape of the blade and sori IMHO.

 

I could be wrong of course...but if you look at the positioning of the two blades on the body, the sori must be different to optimise the respective method of drawing the blade IMHO.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

To be clear, i only say that i have a big doubt about the practical purpose of sori. I think that the comparison between koshi-zori and saki-zori is a nonsense, the first was found on tachi which were worn hanging on the waist and cutting edge down while the second is a katana worn into the obi with cutting edge up. Tachi and katana were not used the same way.

 

I would add that nagasa is far more important than sori

 

Keep in mind that the blade fit tightly the saya (try to draw a 85 cm katana with a strong saki-sori if you are 1.50m tall).

[Ruben]

Hi,

 

To be clear, i only say that i have a big doubt about the practical purpose of sori. I think that the comparison between koshi-zori and saki-zori is a nonsense, the first was found on tachi which were worn hanging on the waist and cutting edge down while the second is a katana worn into the obi with cutting edge up. Tachi and katana were not used the same way.

 

I would add that nagasa is far more important than sori

 

Keep in mind that the blade fit tightly the saya (try to draw a 85 cm katana with a strong saki-sori if you are 1.50m tall).

 

 

 

Oh no, ... its not nonsense! :lol:

 

A good swordman will choose his wappon carefully or adapt him to it, this two ways are possible... to avoid early death. :x

 

Regarding the drawing issue, ....for example, the Tachi can be turned to draw.

I think it should be, otherwise you cut your saya or your finger when making noto again.lol

For just drawing, the Sori of course makes some difference, but it´s possible to handle any sword. The Hayashizaki Ryu uses big daito in close distance, everything is possible...

 

The key for it is "Tai Sabaki" and "Sayabiki", even 3 Shaku is not realy a problem.

 

On horse back it´s maybe not necessary to get the blade out of Saya quickly.

It would be better to just relax with the curved tsuka in your right hand, bound to the wrist, galloping as fast as possible to crush the enemy´s helmets from above.

 

PS: Interesting discussion, thank´s to all so far...

 

Regards

 

ruben

[george trotter]

 

To be clear, i only say that i have a big doubt about the practical purpose of sori. I think that the comparison between koshi-zori and saki-zori is a nonsense, the first was found on tachi which were worn hanging on the waist and cutting edge down while the second is a katana worn into the obi with cutting edge up. Tachi and katana were not used the same way.

 

Hi,

Don't your words verify exactly what I just explained about the need for different sori for different drawing techniques (see pics)?

[cabowen]

There can be no doubt that different styles demanded different shapes-usage dictated the shape. Length also was dependent on style and on the person ordering the blade- height and reach was a part of the length determination.

 

If usage had nothing to do with it, long, koshizori blades used primarily in horseback would not have been shortened when used as uchi-gatana. Kanbun Shinto blades would not be straight, and all swords would be the same shape and length.

 

Even WWII blades made by the Yasukuni Jinja smiths and the RJT were required by the military to be of a certain length and sori, which had been found to be optimal for close combat fighting.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Don't your words verify exactly what I just explained about the need for different sori for different drawing techniques

 

I don't think so; Battle started mostly with swords already out of the saya, (it's not Hollywood cowboys's duel).

 

If usage had nothing to do with it, long, koshizori blades used primarily in horseback would not have been shortened when used as uchi-gatana

 

What sori has to do in matter of lenght ? If a sword is suriage it is to adapt its lenght, not its sori... Troll here ?

[george trotter]

Hi,

Why does sori exist?

Why did it change?

[cabowen]

Hi,

 

What sori has to do in matter of lenght ? If a sword is suriage it is to adapt its lenght, not its sori... Troll here ?

 

 

The point is swords were made, length, sori, etc., according to how they were to be used. They were modified/adapted to fit new usage. It's all about how they were to be used. Sori was not made randomly and did not change randomly.

 

Ugh, I am once again about to be sucked into Black Hole Jacques....Must reverse thrusters.......

[george trotter]

Hi,

Why does sori exist?

Why did it change?

 

Well, what is the answer Jacques...?

[Ruben]

Lets keep it simple as possible, I think it´s all about moving the balance point of the balde!

 

When using a straight sword, for example "Kanbun Shinto" sugata type (still has little koshi zori to it), more linear/horizontal/fast strikes are possible, or better say necessary. You snapp him with monouchi direct in the face / with kissaki on the forehead. It´s more like a wrist snapp combined with strong force in straight forward motion, to always keep your center line lets say.

Of course with out Kabuto, otherwise the enemy would laugh at you.

Or simple stabbing, this works well with straight swords. A little sting in the face or left eye, ..... for shure a benefit in a duel!

 

For curved blades the striking is different, it´s kind of a big motion, there are so many ways to cut somthing...

Shure it all depends on the situation.

 

On horseback a koshi zori blade makes perfect sense, the chance to cutting off the horses butt or ears is less , at the same time you can use this limited space and freedom of degree for striking motions. Monouchi is nearly straight, but deep koshi zori, shure also good for lashing the horse :D.

 

Greetings

 

ruben