Tachi stand - blade up blade down

[Curran]

Serious question:

 

I personally believed tachi stands like this one

http://www.iidakoendo.com/info/item/b034.htm

required the blade to have the kissaki pointing towards the heavens.

 

I don't know where this was learned. I've seen Japanese display the blades (in shirasaya or koshirae) kissaki down into the stand.

None of them being serious collectors, I always assumed this was a mistake on their part.

 

Recently I have acquired a very elegant tachi display and placed a tachi blade in shirasaya on it.

----> The tachi is about 4 ft long in shirasaya with sayagaki.

----> displayed this way, sayagaki is upside-down.

 

To be honest, it looks much, much, MUCH better displayed kissaki down.

Is this improper Japanese etiquette?

 

This will be on display in Tampa, and I'd like to know before then whether I am committing an etiquette error.

[Lance]

Not sure about shira saya, but for a mounted tachi I always thought one of the main reasons for being displayed point up-tsuka down is a a balance/safety issue as the tsuka nakago section is heavier, making it more stable and also to protect the point. If the blade was displayed point down it increases the chance can it slide down and damage it if the mekugi or tsuka was loose?

 

sword pictured below from Bonhams looks like it's about to fall over

 

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17513/lot/3163/

Regards,

Lance

[raiden]

traditionally tachi mounted or tachi koshirae are displayed tsuka down, but not when in a shirasaya. a shirasaya is usually not displayed on a tachi kake.

[sanjuro]

Curran.

I can only pass on what my Sensei told me. Since he was from a very old and famous samurai bloodline, I figure he knew what was what.

 

Tachi in Koshirae on a tachi kake: Hilt down.

Tachi on Katana kake : edge down.

 

Katana (Otherwise daito) on tachi kake are displayed hilt up, and a tachi in shirasaya is equally a daito, so hilt up would be appropriate

As already mentioned, Tachi in shirasaya are usually displayed on a katana kake edge down. However, if displayed on a tachi kake of necessity, then hilt up to show the sayagaki in your case would be best and also appropriate.

 

At the end of the day, I doubt you are going to be labelled a Philistine for non observance of an obscure custom since it is legitimate to display the sayagaki in a way that it can be read without handling the sword. :D

[nagamaki - Franco]

Tip down is just asking for trouble.

[sanjuro]

On further reflection, a question that arises in my mind regardless of which way up it is displayed, is since the jaws of the upper support are invariably quite narrow on a tachi kake, being made for the much slimmer koshirae saya, would they admit a shirasaya that is usually quite a bit stouter than a normal saya?

I think also that the safety aspect is worth considering since the sori of a tachi blade is usually more pronounced toward the nakago, the hilt up method may render it rather unsafe or unsightly on a tachi kake as Franco has indicated.

Hilt up may be more desirable and may be allowable but is it wise?

[Alex A]

Hi Keith, i see that you say a tachi in koshirae on katana kake should be blade down, is there a reason for this? I know it may just be custom, but would it not be better to protect the sharp edge?

 

Alex

[sanjuro]

Alex.

 

Custom and common usage. On a katanakake the blade is displayed as worn. Katana edge up, Tachi edge down. I dont make the rules I just obey them. I do agree however that in the case of the tachi it seems to go against conventional wisdom concerning the preservation of sharp edge. Given that Tachi were not really supposed to be displayed or racked on a katanakake, then my guess would be that it was considered only a temporary measure in the absence of a tachi kake.

In my own case at home, my Tachi in koshirae are displayed on a tachi kake hilt down, and those tachi I have in shirasaya are on Katanakake -edge up. And for the record, I always rack my swords hilt to the right on a katanakake. Its a martial arts thing, and it aint gonna change at my house, despite the Edo period practice of racking swords hilt to the left. :D

[Alex A]

Now i understand the katana kake rules ...

Im an hilt to the left guy myself, call me old fashioned

 

Alex.

[sanjuro]

Alex.

Hilt to the right is more old fashioned. It makes the sword more accessible in case of an attack. This method dates to Muromachi period. Only the effite samurai of the Edo period were so lacking in preparedness that they racked their swords hilt to the left. They had forgotten that one must stay vigilant and ready to fight even when in your own house. Hilt to the left a sword is harder to draw quickly for use.

In iaijutsu I was taught to draw the katana whilst it was still on the katanakake, leaving the saya where it was!

[Alex A]

I suppose one could confuse an assailant if one was left handed :D

 

Keith, your leading me to believe you live in one mean neighborhood! Joking

 

Alex.

[kunitaro]

Hilt is left, Especially when you have guest.

to show that you have no intention to attack.

and saying (without words) " I trust you" to your quest.

 

if you put hilt right on Katana-kake, which is meaning "I don't trust you" to your guest.

 

same as Tachi-stand.

Hilt Down, "I trust you"

Hilt UP, "I don't trust you"

 

And I think that almost no left-handed in old time in Japan.

They forced to train right handed, scissors, Knives, other tools.

Left handed is called "Hidari-kiki" or "Giccho" in Japanese, it sounds almost like a handicap.

[Geraint]

Well at least if Curran decides to go with his feeling and display the tachi in the stand with the hilt up so that the sayagaki can be read then when someone tells him that tachi are always the other way up he can reply sagely, "Only when in koshirae." Whatever you decide to do Curran enjoy the event!

[Jean]

Tachi stand are made to receive Tachi koshirae and not shirasaya.

 

BTW, you will notice that often the lacquered adorned katanakake are too narrow to receive shirasaya, I was told that it was because they were made to receive full mounted blades or koshirae.

 

Shirasaya were rather put on racks.

[Curran]

Thank you all for the answers.

 

Attached is a photo of what the tachi kake and tachi looked like. Looks better this way than the other, but still a little absurd towering at 4ft. You guys gave me enough information to think I was pushing it to try it.

 

The katana kake I have is that mid edo one. At 260 years, I hesitate to drag it to the sword show.

~But it may be better for the tachi.

 

The tachi kake will probably hold an Owari koshirae. I hate to separate it from its blade on the katana kake, but it seems wiser on a variety of fronts. As Jean pointed out, the neck is narrower. It held the shirasaya very snug, and is more at ease with a smaller katana koshirae in it.

[Alex A]

Looks good,ive just spotted a mitsu on the sayagaki, must be learning something.

 

Alex.

[Jean]

Thanks Curran to have put the word "neck" as I did not know how to name it in Englih (BTW, I don't know it either in French :D ). Is neck the word you would use for katana kake or "slot" or what?

[Jean]

Alex,

 

Please go to the kanji pages and translate the first part of the sayagaki

 

Province name + smith name (this smith has been discussed at length several times, he belongs to the province which has provided half the sword production in Koto times and worked at the beginning of the Muromachi period and was one of the "san mitsu"). I wonder if I have forgotten something

[Curran]

Jean,

 

I think we would say 'neck' or 'collar'. It is really just a choice.

We might say 'neck' for the whole vertical part, or just the length and save the word 'collar' for that up top going around the saya or shirasaya.

 

Learning languages can be fun and cruel.

I remember learning that 'tsuba' (sword guard) pronounced is also the word for 'spit' and I cannot hear the difference in pronunciation, if any. A Japanese teacher blushed as she wondered why I was talking about putting 'spit' on something.

 

...languages....

[John A Stuart]

That is funny Curran. They are both pronounced tsuba つば according to one database, but, another has spit as ツバ . John

[Jean]

Thanks a lot Curran.

[Bazza]

That is funny Curran. They are both pronounced tsuba つば according to one database, but, another has spit as ツバ . John

 

Yes, but the 'accent' (hatsuon) in pronunciation is different. Pronunciation of tsuba in two syllables is rising on the second syllable or falling. One means a sword guard, the other spit. I know the pronunciation can sound the same, but native speakers have no trouble with it at all (of course!!). Our tutor in a language class once demonstrated this conclusively to we Western students of the language. hashi is another common one - chopsticks or a bridge depending on the accent.

 

Bestests,

BaZZa.

[John A Stuart]

Thanks, I hope I have not spit on anyone by accident. John

[Curran]

BaZZa,

 

That is the exact question I asked, knowing how it was with hashi.

The answer I got with 'tsuba' was that there was no difference. I thought there must be, but there are many words in English where there is no difference.

[Alex A]

Hi Jean, correct me if im wrong but i think its Oei Bizen Yasumitsu.

Alex.

[Jean]

Alex,

 

Yes, you are right. It reads "Bizen no kuni Yasumitsu". :D

[Alex A]

Would have struggled without the 2 clues Jean, the yasu on the sayagaki looks slightly different to the whats written elsewhere for yasu.. Great to get it right for a change

 

Alex.