How do you identify a naginata tsuba?

[sanjuro]

This topic is prompted by observations made over a period of time by members of the board.

One sometimes sees a tsuba that has a nakago ana that is rectangular, which is usually immediately identified as a naginata tsuba. There is in fact one on ebay at the moment whose sole claim to being a naginata tsuba is a rectangular nakago ana. This despite the fact that the tsuba in question also has hitsu ana which would be totally pointless on a naginata.

The nakago of every naginata I have seen is in fact similar in cross section to a normal sword nakago, ie not rectangular but with a narrow ha and a broad mune. So why is a rectangular nakago ana identified/associated with the naginata? Is it that perhaps regular tsuba adapted for use with a naginata are given a rectangular nakago ana in order to mount them either way on the naginata?

I may add that I have four naginata tsuba, none of which have a rectangular nakago ana, two of which are still on the naginata they came with.

There must be other indicators that a tsuba was intended for a naginata, and one wonders what they may be and if any board member can enlighten me.

[Gilles]

Dear Keith,

 

You raise a very interesting question here.

I've been told by an antiques dealer in Japan that some very thick wakizachi size tsuba made of iron could be used on naginata. Moreover, from time to time, I stumble upon such tsuba which are definitely not made for regular size wakizashi.

I've also heard about rectangular nakago ana made for naginata but did not have the occasion to see one on a naginata yet.

Is there some knowledgeable person in this particular field who can explain that to us?

[christianmalterre]

not knowledgeable enough so to give an statement,rather mine critical thoughts and observations i did get...

I do not think such Tsuba were produced especially for Naginata...maybe circumstancely used(?)yes,perhaps...but not especially produced FOR...

 

Rather see them as Tsuba which anyways are/were related to trade/commerce with this here...

http://www.metmuseum.org/pubs/journals/ ... nnered.pdf

and:

http://www.mandarinmansion.com/articles ... 20Qing.pdf

 

This possibility-also in reading further about this article(see booklist chart on bottom)does rise(and may give?) much more answers than questions...

Speculative-Yes...

Logic but equally....

 

make your´s own mind...

 

Christian

[myochin]

I do not believe either that a tsuba with a "square" nagako-ana was intended to be mounted on a naginata. Afterall, the cross section of the tang on a naginata, yari, katana-wakizashi-tantô are of the same shape --> triangular.

I have a Norisuke tsuba with a square nakago-ana, it is obvious that the tsuba has been rotated 180° to suit the fancy of an owner, but in no way was it intended for a naginata:

 

In "The Picture Book of Old Tsuba" there is a Negoro tsuba that was probably mounted on a nagamaki-koshirae. The boldness, the flat square-raised mimi and the lack of kozuka/kôgai ana do seem to point towards a tsuba specifically dersigned for a naginata (sadly there are no dimensions given:

 

Christian, thanks for those 2 PDF's, I also have an interest in Bannermen !

 

Paul.

[Soshin]

Hi Keith G.,

 

I don't know about naginata tsuba but Paul's reply reminded be that a rectangle shaped nakago-ana is characteristic of Yagyu tsuba. Noritsuke and his school made many late generation Yagyu tsuba during the late Edo Period. I once owned a NBTHK hozon level papered example. Just my two cents. Hope you find it helpful.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[sanjuro]

Thanks guys for your interest and your valuable input.

 

David.

It was the yagyu tsuba feature of the rectangular nakago ana that first made me question the the rather hasty assumption that all such tsuba were in fact naginata pieces.

 

Paul.

Thanks for posting that nagoro tsuba. It seems to be a largish example on first impression, and I cant really imagine it as anything but an example intended for use on a nagamaki. The wear marks on the seppa dai also have that wider oval characteristic of a naginata seppa as opposed to the longer oval of a sword seppa of similar vintage. As you state, the only non triangular nakago ana occur on tsuba for yari and those are fairly rare. The yagyu tsuba seem to be the only ones that have these rectangular ana and also the example posted by Paul which was to accomodate a reversed mounting.

 

Christian.

I'm still wading through that booklist and the links you posted . Theres a lot of info there to get through.

 

Gilles.

In support of your thick wakizashi tsuba statement I have included here pics of 2 of my naginata tsuba. They seem to support your theory.

Other side.

This iron Tsuba is associated with a Momoyama Naginata signed by Shimada Hirosuke. It was originally covered with black urushi which an enterprising dealer saw fit to remove. There are however some remnants of the original urushi on the mimi and lobe surface.

Yamagane naginata tsuba, also once black lacquered. By chance it fits also the naginata by Hirosuke, Whilst it is Tanto/Wakizashi size, It is too thick and the nakago ana too large and proportionally robust for a wakizashi or tanto.

[Bugyotsuji]

Just wondering what people might make of this iron Tsuba. I was attracted to it and bought it, knowing nothing about it. The dealer said the same thing: Naginata Tsuba. Why does this common perception persist?

7.8 x 7.8 x 0.3  cm

 

 

 

 

 

[Shugyosha]

If a tsuba was made for a naginata, I can't see why it would have hitsu ana so perhaps it was re-purposed? Then again, I can't see why a sword tsuba would have a rectangular nakago ana unless it had been fitted and refitted so many times that it was necessary to cut away the metal area with the tagane because it was too fragile. Perhaps the seki gane on this last one would suggest that as the nakago ana could simply have been cut to fit the new blade. All conjecture of course.

[Alex A]

Forget the name, but perhaps modified to fit...........

 

Page 325, Stones glossary

 

No9, "Made and mounted like a sword but it has a curved iron bar"

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

“Modified to fit”
Interesting, so maybe adapted from an original Tsuba to become (in early Meiji?) the guard on a Jutté/Jitté or Hachiwari/Kabutowari?

[Alex A]

Yes, they are the words i was looking for Piers, cheers.

 

Was told some years ago that those type of heavy clunkers are rare and were also used on battlefields 

 

When you think about it, if wearing armour and taking a blow, id rather it come from a sword than one of those , 1cm thick.

 

The gent that told me, very experienced and had only ever seen one, that was in gunto mounts

[Bugyotsuji]

Oh, I was imagining after the Haitōrei when sword carrying was prohibited.

[Alex A]

Edited my post,.

 

Suppose difficult to know for sure, but at least some ideas

 

 

[Spartancrest]

There is an auction running now with a Naginata bare blade [cut] which shows the plain small guard mounted and un-mounted.

 https://www.jauce.com/auction/k1036264492  I can't see any use on a Naginata for having hitsu-ana on the guard. How was a Naginata carried? Surely kogai & kozuka would fall out when the weapon was carried vertically. However I am sure some guards were recycled, just not made with hitsu to fit a Naginata.

 

[roger dundas]

The above 'recognizing a guard for a naginata' again raises the question about it's (the tsuba's) major use to keep the 'wielder's hand from slipping onto the blade and getting cut'- or does it ?

Roger j

[Bugyotsuji]

Perhaps in that sense 'guard' is not the right word to use.

 

I have seen so many different types and sizes of naginata tsuba that I am unsure whether there was even an archetypal shape.

[Shugyosha]

8 hours ago, roger dundas said:

The above 'recognizing a guard for a naginata' again raises the question about it's (the tsuba's) major use to keep the 'wielder's hand from slipping onto the blade and getting cut'- or does it ?

Roger j

 

Maybe the other way around - to stop someone with a sword or other blade running that blade down the shaft to attack the hands of the weilder, something similar to the hadome on a spear shaft? Perhaps not but some of the Iaidoka might have a view on this?

[Spartancrest]

The words "minimal protection" spring to mind. On the example above the guard would be close to the size of the shaft itself. The orientation of the guard must come into the discussion. We know that the guards are always oriented as the first example - but if it was to parry an opponents blade surely the other orientation would work better. I think in the case of naginata the guard is more likely to simply serve as a stop when fitting the saya.

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

so the Japanese were wrong in the conception of a NAGINATA TSUBA? I have problems believing that! Remembering how a NAGINATA was hold and used in battle, I think that the usual shape was just good enough to deflect or stop an opponent's blade.

Looking over the Japanese sea to the Chinese who had their GUANDAO, many of these are equipped with small TSUBA-like protectors, most of them following the shape of the oval shaft.

[vajo]

Some woodprint pictures maybe help.

 

 

 

 

 

It shows mostly a kikugata or mokogata tsuba. Without kogai and hitsu ana.

 

like this one

 

 

Kagamishi Tsuba for a Naginata?

 

Tsuba should be small like a waki tsuba and not to heavy. I think. 

 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

No Jean I think a tsuba on a naginata served the same purpose as on a sword - stopping the hand from running up the blade. There is still little to no evidence tsuba were intended to stop an opponents blade. Someone please show me the thousands of guards with cut marks please. Half a dozen examples would merely suggest  incidental damage. The tsuba was not a parrying guard as on European weapons, the Japanese sword was not used tête-à-tête even though it is shown in 'spaghetti" samurai movies that way. It comes back to practicality, if a guard was to stop an opponents blade why use leather, copper, shakudo, ivory or maki-e?

On a side note can anyone tell me the cost difference between producing a plain iron guard compared to copper, yamagane, shibuichi etc? 

 

Same use as on a Guandoa.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Spartancrest
new data

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

I really would like to know from someone who is an expert in KENJUTSU or one of the big sword-fighting RYU, how important and numerous TSUKI or other stabbing and thrusting techniques are actually to be found in Japanese sword-fighting?

I don't think it is very reasonable to believe that a special thrusting weapon like an AIKUCHI could be used without such a 'hand-stop', and a HAMIDASHI TANTO with a very small TSUBA as well, if this special purpose was really important!

My impression is that this subject is mainly a 'religious' one. There are believers - and others....

[roger dundas]

I must admit my ignorance here.  I had thought that when a naginata was used in battle/fighting,  that the hands would have been held well back from the blade proper.  But going by the bindings( in the illustrations above -on the pole adjacent to the tsuba )then that was not the case ? If that is so then a tsuba would still qualify as a stop to hands sliding forward, same as for a sword ?

Does this make sense ?

Roger j

[ROKUJURO]

Roger,

a good question! As far as I know (hence my question above) the hand of a NAGINATA fighter is well behind the TSUBA when in action. Imagine that NAGINATA were used by SAMURAI on foot, often against SAMURAI on horseback. A long pole would not make sense if it was not used to have more reach. This was needed to avoid a sword blow while in the same moment the rider was sliced or stabbed. But if I am correctly informed, NAGINATA were more a slicing than a thrusting weapon (like YARI) and used accordingly. So the longer pole compensated for the short reach of the NAGINATA blade.

But I would like to have my opinion confirmed by a more knowledgeable member.

[Spartancrest]

It might be seen as sexist, but no one has commented on how nice the Guandoa lady looks! 

[roger dundas]

Both pretty and proud too.

Is anyone here collecting these ladies to go with their naginatas  (or their Chinese equivalents)?

Roger 2

[Bugyotsuji]

Agreeing with the above to the extent that in earlier eras pole weapons are said to have been waved around for side strikes, rather than simply thrust or jabbed like with later generation Yari.

 

A Tsuba may have performed both of the above functions, but I suspect it acted equally as a drip lip/deflector to prevent blood running back down the haft and making it too slippery to hold.

[ROKUJURO]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

.....A Tsuba may have performed both of the above functions, but I suspect it acted equally as a drip lip/deflector to prevent blood running back down the haft and making it too slippery to hold.

Piers,

you add an interesting new aspect to the subject I had not thought about. However, TSUBA are not seen on YARI, as far as I know. Does that mean that there was less blood caused by a YARI-inflicted wound?

[GRC]

All of the above functions sound perfectly reasonable and valid, if and when they actually happened for the user during practical use.

Tsuba were clearly a multi-purpose object, including the aesthetic aspect, which gradually became the more prominent function during the Edo period (at least on swords anyway).

So, it seems almost pointless to try to come to sort of ultimate resolution of which function was the MOST important.

That ultimately comes down to the the user and and how they used it.

You could then almost come up with an individualized hierarchy of functions for each tsuba, if you could go back and find out how times it served each function during its use.

 

Regardless, the weight of evidence clearly puts the defensive function lower down on the hierarchy of importance. For all the blades with nicks and chips along the Ha and the Mune, there are infinitely fewer tsuba that have any sword inflicted damage whatsoever. So by sheer overwhelming evidence of numbers, the defensive function of the tsuba falls further down the list of priorities.

 

Regarding the aikuchi tanto and tanto with very small tsuba.

I had read somewhere in a koshirae book (can't remember which) that it was done primarily to allow the tanto to sit closer to the body, and allow for it to be a little more hidden.

However, not having a "hand-stop" does change the way you could use the blade. Thrusting one-handed with a guardless tanto would definitely become a higher risk maneuver for the user.

I imagine it would have been used mostly as a slashing, rather than a stabbing weapon.

[Bugyotsuji]

I believe that the tanto was also sometimes pushed or slammed with the heel of the other palm, Glen. Perhaps this is part of the reason that some tanto were worn on the Mete (right) side.　See 馬手差 mete-zashi

 

As to yari, Jean, and I hate to bring this up, but one of the members of our teppo group assured me that wielders of yari were encouraged to stab the unprotected eyes of their opponents. For this reason the blades did not need to be over long.

 

Another contraption that I have seen on yari is a tubular sliding guarded handle for the left hand. The right hand would grip the haft firmly and the spear would slide in and out through the movable cylindrical section.