Ko Tosho Tsuba

[Henry Wilson]

Very nice and right-up my alley. Can anyone comment on why it has been attributed to the Nanbokucho period?

 

http://www.nihonto.com/11.6.12.html

[kunitaro]

It is all about Patine.

Thickness must be thinner than 3mm, maybe 2.5mm.

Hageyama san's description is Nanbokucho period, because of Size (9.5cm), which i agreed,

NBTHK Hozon descriptor that "Ko-Tosho" which is meaning, Momoyama/Muromachi period or older.

however,

Size, can be faked,

Design, can be faked,

Hammer mark, can be faked,

Thickness, can be faked,

But, Patine can not be faked which is almost impossible to see by photo.

so, you must exam in your hand, also, you must know how it should be looks like(old patine)

To exam (judge) by photo on Internet is not possible,

so ,we depend on Paper,,,,,

Attributed Tosho and Ko-Tosho are different story.

 

Ko-Tosho (Juyo) : 10000-20000 or more

Ko-Tosho (Hozon/Tokubetsuhozon) : 5000-10000 or more,

Tosho(Hozon) : Early - Mid Edo : 500 - 1000

[Henry Wilson]

Hi Kunitaro

 

Thank you for the very interesting and informative reply. I wonder if a patina was somehow in bad condition would that prevent a tsuba being placed in the Nanbokuchou period?

 

Also, the numbers you list, what do they refer to?

 

Many thanks again.

[kunitaro]

If the tsuba is re-patine or damaged, it wll not get paper. I think.

and the listed number is market value in Euro or USD.

 

it is easy to get attributed "Tosho"

but "ko-Tosho" is difficult, because, it is very rare.

[Marius]

I have had the opportunity to compare a repatinated ko-tosho tsuba with one that seems to have the patina intact. The difference is immense. And the former has been repatinated by someone whose job is considered very, very good. There will always be that dull look to a re-applied (read: fake) "patina".

 

I have one tsuba that looks to be ko-tosho. I guess if it were ubu, I would never be able to afford it. The patina on it is gorgeous.

 

I will probably state the obvious but patina is one of the most important factors in determining the age of a tsuba.

[kunitaro]

why do you think it is(was) ko-Tosho, if it is re-payined ?

[Soshin]

Hi Henry W.,

 

That is a nice tsuba you linked to. I generally agree with Kunitaro-san statements with following exception. Lately the NBTHK has only been using the Ko-Tosho describtion for tsuba that date from the Middle Muromachi Period or before. This is different than how Sasano and others in the past have used the term to refer to pre Edo Period Tosho tsuba.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Marius]

why do you think it is(was) ko-Tosho, if it is re-payined ?

 

Good point, Kunitaro-san :-)

 

The shape looked right, with expected wear in the sukashi and hitsu-ana, but the patina was, well... fake.

But, of course, I am not a shinsa, I might be dead-wrong. It might have been a newly made tsuba, made to look like a ko-tosho.

[Curran]

It is my opinion that Fred's is a nice Muromachi example. Its size and condition make desirable, though price on these seems to have come down a good bit in recent years. There are others slightly smaller available around the 2.5k to 3k mark in Japan- not selling.

 

Still- size and condition are extremely important. Someone with deep pockets will probably buy this one. There is only 1 that I can think of which would tempt me more, and it is still 'not for sale'. Missed my window of opportunity long ago when it was briefly offered up.

 

As David said, NBTHK has recently been pushing back the giving of Ko-tosho and Ko-katchushi to mid Muromachi. It is a bit confusing, as recently papered "Tosho" and "Katchushi" are sometimes older examples than others with NBTHK papers saying 'Ko-tosho' or 'ko-katchushi'.

 

Ultimately: use your best judgement

[Marius]

There is only 1 that I can think of which would tempt me more, and it is still 'not for sale'.

 

Is it the one that has been offered some time ago on yamabushiantiques.com? And that went into a collection?

If I may ask, that is.

[Henry Wilson]

Ko-Tosho (Juyo) : 10000-20000 or more

Ko-Tosho (Hozon/Tokubetsuhozon) : 5000-10000 or more,

Tosho(Hozon) : Early - Mid Edo : 500 - 1000

Note added by Wilson: Estimated values in Euro or USD

 

These figures are very interesting. Thank you Kunitaro for listing them.

 

I wonder what differentiates a Juyo Kotosho from a Hozon/Tokubetsuhozon Kotosho. The criteria must be age (within the Kotosho net), quality, condition, provenance. Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Soshin]

Hi Henry W.,

 

Good question. I think it is likely size, age, and quality of iron as well as the ko-sukashi design. This just my opinion and what I would look for. The patina as already stated is also really important.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[kunitaro]

The Patina is the most important matter for iron Tsubas.

and ko-Tosho/ko-Kachushi tsubas are the ultimate.

Most simple tsuba, flat round tsuba with simple sukashi.

This kind of tsuba was made through all ages from kamakura till bakumatsu and Gendai...

basically, ko-Tosho/ko-kachushi tsuba has No Hitsu-ana.

(they are for fighting weapon / Nodachi)

sometime we see with hitsuana, but, it was done later.

i think that importance of Judging is 80% condition of patina, 10% size and thickness, 5% mimi, and 5% design,

All of those must be excellent condition for Juyo quality.

however, you must experience in your hand and with your eye.

when you see maybe 10 pieces of Juyo ko-Tosho, you will see the difference from later tsubas.

Yagyu or Kanayama are same as well, we can never judge by Design.

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

It is a nice weather today for November in Maryland so I did a art photo of what I think is a Ko-Tosho tsuba in my collection. It is unpapered and of average size at 8.0 cm is diameter. The thickness at the rim is 3.0 mm. The ko-sukashi design is of a war fan or gunbai in Japanese. The kozuka-hitsu ana I think was added later to the tsuba. The patina is a bit thin in a few places but overall not that bad and no active rust. The color of the patina that is there is a nice bluish-black characteristic of Tosho tsuba. The rim also displays a fair number of fine tekkotsu and the surface displays the hammer marks (tsuchimei-ji) of the tsuba maker. More photos of this tsuba is on my website.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Pete Klein]

Kunitaro san -- I cannot agree with you more. I did not understand what you are referring to until several years ago when for the first time I saw a Juyo Jingo and Juyo Nobuie tsuba in hand at the Tampa show (thank you Hanns) and quite honestly it was like the proverbial 'diamond bullet into the forehead' when you have the epiphany of understanding that you have not known anything until that moment. If anyone wishes to truly understand the field they must see up close and personal high level objects otherwise they will not have a true reference point.

[kunitaro]

Pete san,

What can not you agree with me ?

Sorry, i didn't undersatnd,

could you please explain ?

[John A Stuart]

Kunitaro san, Pete does in fact agree quite strongly with you. It is an English way of speaking showing extreme agreement. John

[kunitaro]

John san,

Thank you for explaining.

English is sometime more difficult than Iron Tsuba.

Excuse me.

[Pete Klein]

Thank you John!

[Danocon]

Well, you guys have done a great job of building my library of Tosho and Ko-Tosho Tsuba. Thanks-keep 'em coming.

 

One question-particularly for Kunitaro-san. Is the great patina solely a function of age or was it a particular patinization method and maybe the quality of the iron of the time period?

[kunitaro]

Is the great patina solely a function of age or was it a particular patinization method and maybe the quality of the iron of the time period?

 

I think that combination of all fact, Material(steel),partinization and Age included hand of poeple.

[Danocon]

 

I think that combination of all fact, Material(steel),partinization and Age included hand of poeple.

 

Thank you Kunitaro-san,

 

I find these Tsuba very interesting. I can appreciate the more finely worked tsuba but just the two elements of material (iron) and patina of the tosho style holds a world of possibilities.